That Belgian protocal chief is a moron. That's not surprising, though. Too bad the secret service guy didn't make the pompous ass swallow his own teeth, diplomacy I guess.

Should kicked his pasty Euro ass.

Belgian protocol chief: "You are in Belgium!"
Forgot to add: "may I touch your inner thigh."

I like the part where he says : "You are in Belgium!" No shit, Sherlock, hehe. What a loser.
"Zees iz not yor plane! Wee weee!"

The Secret Service should have radioed Condi to stay on the plane. This looks like a security breach!

It doesn't matter where the plane is, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that the secret service is not going to let people rush the plane carrying Condi Rice. Why this reporter (?) can't figure that out is beyond me.

these types only care when they can excercise power,,and they do it whenever they can,,
no integrity and no grace
btw,,
there's this guy john perry barlow, and he has a blog called
http://www.barlow...
he's one of those eff guys,, electronic freedom foundation
but whn any one right of his center posts, he censors them. so much for electronic freedom and his fake pose on freedom of speech

barlowfriendz.net

not sure why that didn't post

It would be amusing to see Belgium pull the same thing the US pulled there when landing on US soil. I would imagine they would get a beating. But the US does it on their soil and stands proud.

Glad to see Americans acting like they own whatever country they currently happen to be visiting, it wouldn't be the same if they were actually polite and respectful of other peoples' cultures and country.

Euroweenie: "You're in Belgium"

Secret Service: "And we are the sole reason you're not speaking German. Now move!!!"

A Belgian protocol chief disagrees: "This is not your plane..."

Ummm, actually, bumwad, it IS his plane.

"It would be amusing to see Belgium pull the same thing the US pulled there when landing on US soil"

We let people's security do whatever they want, after all, it's their security.

It's called being considerate to visitors.

"actually polite and respectful of other peoples' cultures and country."

yeah , the belgian's don't respect Dr. Rice's desire for security at all.

Oh wait, you were talking about Americans.. huh...

"This is not your plain"? WTF?

Brit, if you visited the US, and I got to close to you, would it be impolite/disrespectful of you to ask me to step back a notch?

A chief of Belgian protocal just tried to claim an airplane as their even with the big giant letters "United States of America" stamped on it. Then, telling a security agent that they are not the boss in Belgian. No, they are not the boss and they don't want to be boss of Belgium. They are hired and trained to protect the Dr. Rice and they are doing exactly that by keeping a good distant between her and the crazies.

From what I just saw, I would not trust security details to any Belgium that are blind and ignorance of security protocal.

The protocol chief:

a) Is supposed to make people feel welcome, not slighted. That ought to be obvious to anyone.
b) Looses the argument by starting it with, "This is not your plane..." Excuse me, but I think I see the 'Seal of the United States of America' on the side of it. Starting the argument with 'This is not your country...' might have some logic to it. Starting the argument with 'This is not your plane...' is assanine.
c) Claiming to possess the diplomatic property of another nation is a serious breach of diplomatic protocol. Imagine the argument going this way, "This is not your attache case, you are in Belgium!" or "This is not your embassy, you are in Belgium" or "This is not your diplomatic bag, you are in Belgium" or "This is not your phone, you are in Belguim"
d) Exactly how diplomatic is it to physically assault the entourage of a foreign diplomat? Exact what sort of protocol officer resorts to physical attacks on the members of a diplomatic corp? A good protocol officer should be collected enough that he wouldn't lose his cool even if punched in the face. He's supposed to smooth over problems, not exacerbate them.
e) As the protocol chief, should have worked out ahead of time details like how close the press would be allowed to approach the plane. If the security detail is uncomfortable with the protocol, it is entirely the protocol chief's fault. Unless of course, the security detail had agreed to the protocol chief's detailed plan of the procedings, which is about the only thing that can justify this, and even then the conversation should have began, "Mssr, they are no closer than 30m, precisely as we agreed beforehand." and not "This is not your plane..." As it is, it looks to me like the guy is incompotent.

The protocol chief is lucky that the guy he shoved was a typical American 'tough guy' with a reflexive 'tough guy' responce. It wins him a slight ammount of sympathy from people inclined to see Americans in the worse possible light. I would have shown him for the fool that he is.

"Glad to see Americans acting like they own whatever country they currently happen to be visiting, it wouldn't be the same if they were actually polite and respectful of other peoples' cultures and country."

I would expect a Brit to know more about politeness, pomp, and protocol than this. If a visiting diplomat says, "We don't want anyone within 50m of the plane." that is what they get. In fact, we reutinely allow visiting diplomats to insult us - for example, the Saudi's often demand that no women be seen from the plane when they land and that no women be in the air traffic control tower. Frankly, I'd tell the Sauds off for such a request and exactly what I think of thier mysogynist culture, but then again, I'm no diplomat.

er Tasha:

'I like the part where he says : "You are in Belgium!" No shit, Sherlock,...'

Don't you mean, "No poo, Poirot!"

This is very similar to what happened in Chile when Chilean secuity peeled off the secret service agents as W went into a building. After a few steps the Prez noticed the shouting (and the fact that he was walking by himself for the first time in 4-1/2 years). He turned around, heaving himself up on the security guards, grabbed his secret service agent and hauled him through the Chilean phalanx. Old rugby move comes in handy.
http://www.quidni...

It's not hard to figure out where the secret service is going to stand on this sort of issue, even the President of the US has to convince them from time to time to give him some breathing room. I'm certain the Belgian Protocol Chief knows that and I think he was prepared to create an incident. Why is anyones guess but I suppose the Belgian news will have plenty of opinions on it.

I still wonder about that event in Chile.

All the security person wanted was for the reporters to back up and not crowd the plane at a time when Condi is in a vulnerable position. It is their job to protect her, even with their own life. Hello!
And now people are saying this is an example of America not respecting people's cultures?? WHAT?? Are you brainwashed or something? What does this have to do with culture? Is it not in your culture to protect your diplomats?
You rely on the mercy of fanatics and murderers to just leave them alone, or is it that you don't want to offend the fanatics and murderers?
My how offensive we Americans are...trying to protect our diplomats! The nerve of us!

@Alisa. It depends whether I was stood close to you or if you came running up from a distance and put yourself in my face. If the latter it would be more than little impolite.

I guess it depends on how the security person asked the reporter to move back, but judging by the comment 'he *ordered* him back' I would guess it was not a polite request to move back a few paces.

@zippie

Some people in Belgium DO speak German.

I translated your Dutch version of this post which appears to contain some mocking dialogue about wearing sunglasses on a cloudy day, and something about the Godfather, and taking a relaxing vacation in Guantanamo... can you enlighten us in the English version?

"Glad to see Americans acting like they own whatever country they currently happen to be visiting, it wouldn't be the same if they were actually polite and respectful of other peoples' cultures and country."

That is a stupid-ass statement... Americans are probably 1000 different nationalities, they are THE model of how a modern and well-integrated society should be.

But I am glad to see Eurotrash getting offended culturally when they ravaged other nations (like my own) for hundreds of years.

Europeans do not understand the difference between respecting cultures and surrendering your country to a culture. Looking forward to when they all speak Arabic. This way I don't have to brush up on my french when I visit.

Air Force Two? When did Condi become the Vice President? "Air Force Two" is the radio callsign of any US Air Force aircraft carrying the Vice President of the United States. If the Vice President isn't onboard than that aircraft isn't Air Force Two.

I think, if you check, you'll find the aircraft flew with a SAM (Special Air Mission) callsign. Take the last three digits of the aircrafts tail-number and you'll get the callsign as "SAM-XXX".

When the Belgian Diplomat said "This is not your Plane" I think he was inferring that the Plane was now the security concern of the Belgians, not the U.S. Secret service. Of course, he's wrong on THAT point as well.

I've transported the entourage of foreign Heads of State before in my job as a Driver... and the normal way of doing things is that the Visiting security (This case the U.S. Secret Service agents) has the Plane and everything inside and around it as their responsibility; the local security (This case Belgian) is responsibility for everything outside that circle. This little dance was over the definition of that circle... and the "Diplomats" have no say in this arguement, it is between the Security folks.

And they ALWAYS argue about it. After all, they are responsible if anything went wrong. Imagine something horrible happens: Secret Service Agent: "I'm sorry Mr. President, but the Protocol Chief really wanted those folks to be there..." Right.

In the cases I have been a part of, there have never been less than four Agencies involved on the AMERICAN side alone... and they have always deferred to the visitors on the range of area under the responsibility of the Visitors. I would expect that it is normal procedure to extend the same nicety to the U.S. in return.

Well, actually allowing your own VIPs to get shot, stabbed etc is more a Dutch tradition, I believe.

Brit, it's Flemish.

@Jeff: you are right about the plane not being "Air Force Two". But even the Washington Post got that wrong: http://www.washin...

I think the error originated with US reporters recognizing the plane as the same plane that Dick Cheney uses when he travels, so they started calling it "Air Force Two".

I am an employee of Abelag Aviation and I was there during Dr. Rice Arrival.

There was a press stand right in front of the plane. I personnaly took the press with a van to that stand. I told them to stay inside that section that was delimited with a chord, which they didn't do.

One thing that surprised me is that they didn't even get screened before entering the airport zone.

I also remember that time when a reporter from the Belgian RTBF was pushed away by a chinese delegation member during their prime minister arrival in Brussels. Again, that reporter left the press stand that was reserved for her and ran toward the plane.

What if a suicide bomber was present in the crowd? What if he had managed to kill the first black, female, United States Secretary of State? How would Belgian journalists cover the angles of that diplomatic incident? Would it be shown on Belgian TV? And what would be the new job description of that former protocol droid?

Celebrim: "for example, the Saudi's often demand that no women be seen from the plane when they land and that no women be in the air traffic control tower."

Are you serious about that?

BTW, A plane is only known as Air Force II if the VP is currently on board, and if the Air Force ownes the plane. This is from the presidental fleet, but does not have anything other then it's normal designation because It's not the pres or VP.

I think they have several 757s, 2 747s and several smaller jets.

"Are you serious about that?"

Good grief, you think I make this stuff up? I never joke about this sort of thing. If I was making this stuff up it would be slander, libel, and hate speech. As it is, I'm just telling the truth.

I had to dig to find a reference to the practice in the mainstream media (otherwise people would dismiss my references as 'far right' bias), but I finally found one that hadn't been removed.

http://archives.c...

@SteveK I know that they speak Flemish and French in Belgium, read my post again.

Brit, don't be an idiot.

I know, I know, damn American Secret Service. Sometimes they're so rude when they do they're job...rolling eyes...NOW

Celebrim, thanks. Unbelievable.

Brit, the Dutch-speaking Flemsih account for about 60%, or six million, of Belgium's population of 10,300,000. The rest is made up by the French-speaking Wallonians (some 3.5 million), and a hodgepodge in Brussels. Also included in this number are non-Belgian immigrants (350,000?) and a small community of about 70,000 German-speaking Belgians in the extreme east of our country.

Well, I don't feel like I have to apologize personally for that moron (I mean the Protocol Asshat), suffice to say I wouldn't have minded his ass kicked. May the whole incident lead to President Bush getting a worthier welcome.

However this got started it's unfortunate that it happened. If it weren't for the islamo-facist, slave trading, terrorists this probably wouldn't be such a touchy issue. That's our world now though, so stop dumping on whole populations of Europe and America. It only helps the religious bigots cause.

The Belgian should'a decked his ass.

Celebrim: "for example, the Saudi's often demand that no women be seen from the plane when they land and that no women be in the air traffic control tower."

Are you serious about that?

I guarantee you they want to see women when they get to their hotel suites though!

Ahmed: And create a real international incident? This was a pissing match between a man doing his job and some scrotty little technocrat who was trying to assert authority where it wasn't. Diplomatic planes have always been considered soverign terriroty of the nation that uses them. The techno-weeb was beating his chest for the television and little else.

You all embarrass me, and our country with your assumptions of propiety and importance.

Jerks.

My observation is that Belgium failed to provide basic security in keeping reporters away from the plane. Any reporter could be a terrorist, so they need to be initially screened, then kept in a sterile environment (transportation and stands) while they wait for Secretary of State Rice. The secret service officer was doing his job. The Belgian officials were not doing theirs. Feathers got ruffled because the secret security agent saw a serious breach of security for the Sec. of State.

Protocol Officer...what a joke. I hope Bush changes his mind about visiting Belgium if this is the kind of security he will receive!!!

The Secret Service man should have decked that
Belgian. End of story!!!!

Oddly enough, I read a very different account of the incident. Apparently, the US agent had first said "This is my plane !", to which the Belgian protocol chief replied "This is my airport, this is my country !". It takes two very silly people to build such a gross incident. The irony is that Condi's visit was very fruitful - she tried to patch things up and make up for the diplomatic blunders made by the previous administration. She did a great job that can't really be affected by this ridiculous pissing contest.

Around 11:15 am, while Air Force Two (a modified Boeing 757) was taxiing on the tarmac and officials were preparing to welcome the Secretary of State, Secret Service personnel and Belgian protocol officials were quarrelling about how close reporters could approach the plane.
_________________________

What you call Secret Service were almost surely Dilopmatic Security Service personnel of the US Department of State.

FYI, I am retired from the US Foreign Service of the US Dept. of State and served in Brussesl from 1989 to 1993 and did many visits of American secretaries of state and defense, plus President Reagan and Bush a few times. Only the president, vice-president, and visiting heads of state get US Secret Service protection (plus their family members).

hey fat ass,

you don't speak for me. zip it. you probably still have a Kerry/Edwards bumpersticker on your car. Loser

A question:
Does anyone know who the Protocol Man is? Is he a political appointee? I ask because it looks like something done for the cameras. If he was trying to launch a career in a Socialist political party, this would be a great way to do it.

Is it unacceptable to call "Big Ass American" a stupid jerk?

We bend over backwards to provide security for other diplomats and you're criticizing our agent who's concerned for Rice. Let's not forget, Belgium is struggling with an increasingly militant Muslim population.

Maybe you should learn a little more before making such a broad, boneheaded statement...

If this guy was a Secret Service Agent, I'd just love to see this idiot _try_ to deck him.

He would have ended up flat on his face with about 800 pounds, er, 400 kg of American on top of him.

Now, what you guys missed in all this kefuffle is that while Condi was there she expressed the opinion that Europe SHOULD become a Federal State with a single foreign minister. As an Englishman who has fervently supported the Bush-Blair alliance and has been four square behind the Iraq liberation (even though I despise Blair as a lightweight politician domestically speaking) moreover having been for many years a committed Yankophile I bitterly resent your recently promoted Secretary of State supporting what most Brits do not want - the surrender of their sovereignty to Brussels, a city which is the fundamental orifice of Europe and a scourge on Western Civilisation. Shame on you Condi, is that our reward for support during the past three years? To hand us over to a bunch of Mafia ridden and unelected bureaucratic bastards with their HQ in a mongrel city? Just to make life a little easier for you diplomatically speaking?

#5110 Nelson
"I bitterly resent your recently promoted Secretary of State supporting what most Brits do not want ..."

As a 3rd party (Canadian), I agree with you and see the Great eUro Govt (GUV), as being potentially very sinister.

Possibly she meant "Euros" as distinct from "Brits." At least that way there'd be only one person with whom to argue.

Security is security , and if the Belgians dont like it , then they can foot the lions share of the bills for Nato .

BTW , I thought the Secret Service acted gracefully and magnanimously , for that reporter should have gotten his teeth knocked out straightaway .

And you all know it .

p.s. that plane like any merchant vessel etc . IS U.S. soil .

Can you imagine if Condi "encouraged" Britain not to join??

1 EU, 1 constitution, 1 vision, 1 voice
1 Seat at the UN.

Nelson , the European Union was YOUR idea not ours . As it was YOUR idea to conjoin currencies in the Euro .
I know you Brits dont like it , just don't blame the U S ---perhaps the frogs ,Eh mate ?

I think Britain should pull out of the EU. Let them sink in their own filth, and DEFINITELY never give up your sovereignty to those 'tards. Most Americans don't think of Britain as European anyway. You have far too much class for that.

'Oddly enough, I read a very different account of the incident. Apparently, the US agent had first said "This is my plane !", to which the Belgian protocol chief replied "This is my airport, this is my country !".'

Unfortunately, the only video I have of the incident is very short and does not contain the full conversation. I've watched it a few times. I'm sure that the protocol officer probably did say something to the effect of 'This is my airport. This is my country'. On that, we perfectly agree. Where I and apparantly the Diplomatic Security Service disagree with the protocol officer, is that the plane is not Belgian, that it is a vehical conveying a recognized credentialed diplomat, and therefore Belgium is most certainly not primarily responcible for the plane.

Apparantly a US agent (probably not the one in the video) first said, "This is my plane!", indicating that he was responcible for it. This triggered an argument. Driver's 21:41 post is instructive.

What happen next we can only speculate, but apparantly a lengthy argument ensued which got quite heated. The agent in the video tries to calm down the protocol officer in the video. We only see the very end of this argument, which I'd guess has been going on for 3-5 minutes or more at this point.

Cut to the the Belgian officer saying, "This is not your plane. You are in Belgium."

The American agent says, "Ok, just calm down. You're right." He turns to walk away.

The senior Protocol officer shoves the agent in the back (probably just to get his attention, but still).

The agent turns around and says, "If you push me again, you're going to go...You're going to go." He points with his thumb over his shoulder.

Three junior assistants converge on the U.S. agent and pin him with thier bodies. Thier approach masks what appears to be a second American agent coming up behind _them_ quickly. The Belgian agent facing away from the camera says, "No don't say that. Don't say that.

The rest of the footage disappears behind a bunch of dark jackets and into a babble of people repeating, "Don't say that.", "Don't say what?", "This is Belgium.", again and again.

Some observations:

1) Again, the Belgian officer is wrong. This is an American plane no matter where it lands. It has 'The United States of America' written on the side and the Great Seal of the United States on it. The U.S. diplomatic agent is responcible for the security of the plane and everyone on it.

2) This argument didn't just come up out of nowhere. What you are seeing is a turf battle between Belgian and U.S. security over who is in charge. Mark my words, the Belgian agency refused to conceed that the U.S. diplomatic security attachment was or is in charge of _anything_. Otherwise, the issue of who was responcible for the plane wouldn't have even come up at this stage. The U.S. and the Belgian agencies did not agree to any sort of protocol over how the Secretary would be recieved when she left the plan, and this was the result.

3) This was I think a very deliberate attempt to provoke a diplomatic incident and is very closely related to the Chilean incident. Mark my words, we have not seen the last of this. Governments with an anti-American (especially anti-Bush) bent will be trying to make a status issue of this from here on out. From now on, everywhere U.S. officials go we will be seeing more of this sort of harrassment. I can almost hear the conversation that went on before this incident developed, "Who do these pushy Americans think they are bringing thier own security detail whereever they go! They do not trust us? They think that they are better than everyone else? They think that they are special? We will show them!" Only of course, it would be in that french accented dialect of Dutch the Belgians use, but I'd be willing to put money on the fact that something like that was said at a very high level of the Belgian security.

4) Contrary to the spin some American 'tough guys' here have used, the U.S. agent was not threatening to punch anyone when he said, 'You are going to go.' The fact that he was pointing with his thumb behind him indicates that the agent thinks the protocol officer has gotten so heated, that he's becoming a security risk and will need to leave. He has yet got around to explaining how that will happen.

5) One thing that Europeans do not undertand, and which I've experience in conversations with them before, is that in America you don't stand that close to someone you are talking to. Americans stay back about an extra 20cm further from the person they are talking to compared to Europeans. At the distance that Europeans normally talk with each, most Americans will feel uncomfortable and depending on the circumstances physically threatened. I don't know if this contributed to the heat of the argument or not, but I'm sure it increased the tension of it probably more than the protocol officer realized. Of course, since I think it was likely that this was a personal grudge by Belgian security against the United States of America, I'm equally sure that the insult was intended.

As I said , the American contingent acted gracefully and magnanimously - I did not say a punch in the face was threatened -----I said it was deserved .

And far as the distance Americans put between each other when talking ? It's just plain ole' fashioned hygiene , as any doctor , they'll tell you 36" / 3ft , or however many centimeters you want to call it , is a safe distance to avoid the passing of pathegens in body fluid that leave the mouth when speaking . It also a courtesy to another person who just might not want you in his face where he can smell your last meal .
Please dont make that into some sort of Fruedian theory . K ?

p.s regardless of what the Belgians wanted or thought they wanted , the U S security contingent was indeed in charge from start to finish , and if by your statements regarding this , you are truly reflecting the Belgian mindset , then they are woefully impuned with their own "faux-self importance " and out of touch with reality .

BTW , what foreign leaders do you know of that do not travel with their own security contingent or if you will "body-guards " ?
And what if one where to violate his "comfort zone " ? Would not those contingents be in your face immediately ?

And finally , you dont have to be a "tough guy " to say - screw the Belgians and their little ploy .[pissing contest]

US Security Agent: "This is going to hurt me more than it will hurt you."

Belgian: "Look, here comes the ground! It hit me in the head."

as the lights suddenly go out.

Celebrim: Your comment about personal space is spot-on and probably overlooked on both sides. After all "In your face" is an American expression implying hostility.

Huhuhu. Some people are soooo envious of the US, LOL. That's why they lose all balance like that guy. Same goes for the lefties and their huge hang-ups vis-á-vis Conservatives. Huhu! That is funny. Really funny.

All this is a perfect example of why the United States should completely sever any and all relations with Europe. The want to behave like an enemy, why not honor that intention?

"Celebrim: Your comment about personal space is spot-on and probably overlooked on both sides. After all "In your face" is an American expression implying hostility."

I think it's also the reason that Americans have a reputation for being loud. We don't stand so close together, so when we Americans are put into spaces with Europeans who are used to being close together, we tend not to think to tone it down a notch.

It's also probably the case that were a European would move closer to show greater intimacy, Americans would tend to just talk more loudly.

I really don't think Europeans realize just how wierd thier mannerism seem to Americans. I've had European friends since grade school, and I'm still not comfortable with the whole European girl running up, hugging, and doing the kiss each check thing. Every time it happens, I feel like I need to be disentangling myself and saying, "Please, I'm married." And when Euro-guys do it, it's just 'Ewwww'. But for them, it's like it's barely more intimate than a handshake.

Maybe the US guy had read this article
http://www.secess...

or this one
http://www.secess...

Both from The Spectator...

Maybe the US guy had read this article
http://www.secess...

or this one
http://www.secess...

Both from The Spectator...

quote: " Again, the Belgian officer is wrong. This is an American plane no matter where it lands. It has 'The United States of America' written on the side and the Great Seal of the United States on it. The U.S. diplomatic agent is responcible for the security of the plane and everyone on it."

In my humble opinion the Belgian officer is totally right: with his "This is not your plane" he's pointing out the fact that the security guy is not inside his plane, but on Belgium ground. He has no jurisdiction there.

@tibor: your explanation of the _intended_ meaning of "this is not your plane" is plausible and until now I had not looked at it that way. Anyway, I think communication was handled very poorly in this case. "This is not your plane", "you don't say that"... maybe these words were intended to have some serious meaning, but they sound ridiculous. "You are not inside your plane" or "this is not your plane HERE", and "you have no legal power HERE" or something like that, would have been more clear. Apart from that, there should have been preparation and coordination between Belgian and American security services in the days before Condi's arrival. My conclusion is that it either is a proof of amateurism from the Belgian 'protocol', OR a staged event for domestic political use. The fact that the cameras only arrived when the quarrel was already underway, makes me think that is was pure amateurism.

You can understand this if you translate 'directly' from french to english:
-c'est pas ton avion (ici): you're not in your plane
-on ne dit pas cela :'this is not done')
typical 'franglais' I guess.
But what's really stupid is that they're not focused on their job...

The fact remains that US security or whatever they are have to respect the opinion of whoever is in charge of the airport (and not the plane) and that happens to be the officer of protocol.
If those yanks don't like it then don't come and F off.
nuff said.

That protocol officer no doubt knows every journalist that was there since they're always the same and must have been fully ID'd before or they would never had gotten onto the tarmac anyway.

I think everything is said re this incident.
The Americans thought the journalists were too close and told them to get back. The Belgian officer overhears this and says it isn't in his authority to tell them off. Americans take care of the airplane coordination, the Belgian security overlooks the airport operations as it is after all Belgian soil.
Now as for the way the Belgian officer tries to make his point is in my opinion too way over the top. But what if indeed something had happened, then it would have come down to a discussion who is to blame and whose responsibility it is.
I don't think this is a pre-planned political incident, I think it is just a communication slip-up that is blown out of proportion ...

I think you have to take in account that the Belgian guy didn't have English as his mother tongue. That too may be a reason why the things he said just sound really silly. We don't know what happened before the time cameras started turning; we don't know the whole story so we can't make a final judgement.

But what we can tell is that both American en Belgian security-guy weren't exactly diplomatic en none of them seemed smart/mature.
End of story.

and for those who doubt the Belgian security services: Brussels gets 10's of foreign ministers, with no incidents so far, so i assume Belgium does know how to handle those people.
Accept for some individuals of course.

Good to see the American diplomacy in full flow, can't speak the language and when he doesn’t do what you want threaten him with violence. Why do they call them secret service, it is always the bloke in the suit with the oakleys. Why do Americans always wear shades when are talking, are they worried that if they take them off they might form some kind of link with the terror suspect (foreigners)?

"This isn't America, Jack...This is LA..."
-Nick Nolte, "LA Story"

Kid Blast

"Nelson , the European Union was YOUR idea not ours . As it was YOUR idea to conjoin currencies in the Euro .
I know you Brits dont like it , just don't blame the U S ---perhaps the frogs ,Eh mate ?"

We haven't yet conjoined currences with the EU and when we joined the EU, it was merely a trading arrangement. What they're trying to foist on us now (and succeeding, inch by inch) is a suborning of our government to an unholy socialist federal alliance of huns and frogs (the erstwhile defeated) and a mish mash of weaker nations, with a view to challenging what they call the 'American hegemony' and what I would rather call the facts of life. We are, despite what the knockers (including the liberal elite in your own country) assert, your best allies, and are still fighting against the Brusselian Bureaucracy; but don't trust Blair. He may be ass-licking at present, but at the first opportunity he will join le club and try to become the first President of the United Socialist Republic of Furope (USRE); bear in mind that will include a massive Muslim electorate that will encompass a significant fundamentalist and miltant element. I repeat: Cool it Condi!
Fuck Brussells! Talk to our Foreign Minister, regardless. He's a bit of a tepid turd, but we'll change him eventually.

Shudders... As you can probably imagine, security for the US State Department visits more lands than they could possibly ever learn the languages for, so your impugning the cop's not speaking the tongue is unfair.

Furthermore, the cop threatened the hothead with expulsion, not violence. It was the Belgian who resorted to violence... a violence I might add that wasn't responded to in-kind.

Security personnel protecting high-profile people wear sunglasses so that they can observe people around them without the people being able to tell where they are looking. This both gives them an advantage that they need and avoids the discomfort and embarassment caused by having a big, strong, musclebound man scrutinizing you for reasons not apparent. This would also provide them some limited protection from flash-bang grenades. All Americans don't wear dark sunglasses all the time. In fact if you spend any time in America (as I have in Europe), you'll find that Americans aren't easily classifiable other than as a function of legal status.

Nelson... I agree with you both with regard to Great Britain being our closest ally and the undesirability of her giving up her sovereignty to the EU regardless of the role that she plays in it. However, I do trust Condi Rice and George Bush to not abuse our influence in this matter when push comes to shove. Until it does, Condi is just doing the dance that diplomacy requires. You'd be hard-pressed to find two people less enthusiastic about conglomo-governments than Rice and Bush.

Immolate

I'm pleased that you think so. However her words are misused by those who are proseltysing on behalf of Britain joing the Euro and those trying to push through the proposed new 'constitution' which in my view is word comprised of two others: con and prostition. I hope it conflates abortion as well, ultimately, but in the meantime careless talk costs votes.

apologies for the typos, I'm wearing the wrong specs.

Nelson,

we are all for you. England would be crazy to join the EU. Why would they want to, to become socialist, devalue their currency and end up with a stagnant economy and high unemployment like the rest of Europe? No way.

hopefully those of you with heads on your shoulders can keep that from happening. I know lots of Democrats here in america that think you're arrogant. Don't know wny they think it's arrogant to not want to submit your soverignty to a foreign power but that's how they think

testing

Amizing, the amount of gross personal insolts in this thread. It looks loike everyone who speaks English is a lout. If something even in the least comparable happens in lvb's Dotch language blog, the post disappears into the somp within an hour. Whoy this different approach? Does lvb still need to make friends for his blog in the Anglo-Saxon world and does he think he can only mike'm if he lets the insults floy about? Tell me, goys.

@Bakeloite: no. If the posts containing insults are withheld, the whole thread's gone.

I think the insults aren't that bad and from an American perspective very understandable.

Okay.... this guy (the protocol asshat) was a schtoopid dork. But face it Americanos: this whole affair is what we'd call "een scheet in een fles". Meaning "a fart in a bottle". In other words, something less than not important. It certainly ain't worth the 85 comments so far. I understand you are all pissed off because of Old Europes coward attitude in the WOT but you got to understand the picture ain't by no means as bleak as you'd think. Trust me, you have more friends here than you think. It's just that, you know, all of the media are in neocommunist hands. TV, newspapers, magazines. There's no thing like FOX or the Wall Street Journal here. Most of the European population is prone to a daily unchallenged bombardment of viciously anti-American propaganda. Cut us some slack. If Europeans would be better informed, the general attitude would change dramatically.

Après un seul coup d'oeil sur les trackbacks de cette histoire, je savais assez. On trouve même un site dans la liste qui se nomme rantburg. Ben, cela dit tout: ces gens sont presque tous des râleurs - et en plus des râleurs machos attirés par les armes, les uniformes, les lunettes noires, l'atmosphère 'services sécrets'. Des types qui aiment jouer aux durs, qui aiment les menaces. Oulala! Comme je frémis! Qu'ils restent dans leur sites à eux! Qu'ils aillent se battre dans le triangle Sunnite contre leur équivalents locaux! Est-ce vraiment l'audience que lvb.net veut attirer avec sa version anglophone? Et entre parenthèses: quand verra-t-on une version francophone de ce blog magistral?

The expression 'Alle categorieën' under 'Filter on category' seems very strange English to me. Is this Swedish and are we gonna get a Swedish lvb-blog too? It would not really surprise me.

Any body sure that the tarmack has to be considered as pure Belgian soil under diplomatic considertions?

#5161

Eikel, nederlands of engels. Geen lafaard taal!

Any chance you can make a Quicktime version of this video?

Mais mon cher Yank, ne vous en faites pas comme ça! Je vois que vous vous inscrivez parfaitement dans la tradition d'insultes des participants anglophones sur ce site. Faut en outre savoir que le français est la langue de Napoléon et de de Gaulle. Le jeune Napoléon est devenu le chouchou de ses soldats parce qu'il marchait avec eux sur le premier rang pendant les batailles. Et ne me racontez donc pas que les français sont des couards. Ils étaient assez braves pour soutenir la révolution américaine dans le temps ou l'Amérique était encore une jeune nation qui avait besoin de défenseurs et maintenant ils sont presque les seuls aujourd'hui à dire non en face de l'hégémonisme américain. Je pourrais aussi vous répondre en Anglais, mais je pensais qu'il fallait d'abord montrer que je ne suis pas votre petit nègre. Bien à vous, Renaud.

@Rudi: 'Pure Belgian soil'? No, it isn't. So many foreign feet have trodden this area and brought along millions of (predominantly quartz) particles from all around the globe that according to a scientific appraisal by the University of Ghent this soil is only 68,33% Belgian. More about this at the University of Ghent website (department of geology).

Kliene Hersen Renaud

Uw taal is een verkrachting van Latijns. Geen ander taal, gebaseerd op Latijn, is zo ver Cicero, Ovid of Pliny vandaan.

De Gaulle was en blijft een okselhaar aan de geschiedenis en Napoleon komt uit Corsica, meer Italiaans dan Frans. Het is wel te merken!

Monsieur le Yank, Je dévine que votre texte en néerlandais est le résultat d'un texte en Anglais passé par une machine à traduire automatique. Il est abominable. Votre texte viole tout à fait cette langue honorable qu'est le néerlandais. J'aurai la bonté de le corriger ainsi:

Renaud met de kleine hersens,

Uw taal is een verkrachting van het Latijn. Geen andere taal, gebaseerd op Latijn, staat zo ver van Cicero, Ovidius of Plinius. De Gaulle was en blijft een okselhaar ...

'Okselhaar'? Cela ne se dit pas, j'en suis sûr. Très maladroit. Je propose:

De Gaulle was en blijft een markante figuur in de geschiedenis van Frankrijk, net zoals Napoleon. Het was er wel aan te merken!

Bof. Je dirais: 4/10, pour l'effort, mais on vous pardonne. Si on est des brutes, c'est logique que ça se montre dans le language employé. Bonne soirée et dormez bien! Renaud.

That Belgian 'protocol chief' is no less than His Excellency Patrick Vercauteren Drubbel, former Ambassador of the Kingdom of Belgium to the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg, former chief of cabinet of Louis Michel aka Big Loulou, and currently Head of Protocol at the Belgian Ministry of Foreign Affairs. The young man standing between the US agent and the protocol chief on the picture at the top of this page, looking worried and trying to ease them down, is Didier Seeuws, spokesman for Belgian prime minister Guy Verhofstadt.

Petit Renaud (#5173): You won't speak English because that would make you one of America's little niggers? Oulala, indeed. And speaking of the dusty brown folk, how are things going in the Ivory Coast? One thing to be said for American hegemony, it sure diverts media attention away from the recolonization of Africa. It also sucks the oxygen out of the whole oil-for-food scandal, in which French companies and (I'm going to take a flyer here) officials are well represented.

Out of deference to your feelings on the matter and so as to avoid insulting cowards everywhere, I call upon Americans to stop calling the French cowards. There, thats' better.

By the way, I think very fondly of LaFayette and the French ships that were decisive in the victory at Yorktown. It was a great thing and has meant much to the subsequent history of the world, including your own. And surely that hasn't been ALL bad.

Hi Barbara, Just to show you I'm not completely têtu, I'll answer you in English. I wasn't referring to 'America's little niggers'. I was just using the expression 'petits nègres' to allude to all people reduced to a position of dependency - slavery, if you insist. After all, the world is larger than the US. The expression 'petits nègres' is used a lot here without having anything to do with the colour of skin. Nonetheless it seems apt in this case. Yanks often seem to suppose the whole world has to kneel and accept their premisses. That scene on the tarmac in Zaventem and all those macho reactions to it are a magnificent example of this attitude.
By the way, I'm not French in the literal sense either. So notes about the recolonization of Africa by the French don't concern me immediately. Though I disapprove of this recolonization. The tragedy of Africa is that all kinds of structures have been set up by the colonial powers that don't correspond to ethnic reality locally at all. Africa will have to wrestle to emerge as itself for a long time to come.

Ich verstehe gar nicht warum die Tatsache dass man Deutsch spricht noch immer irgendwo verbunden werden muss mit dem Nazismus, oder jedenfalls mit etwas unheimliches. Mensch, fast Jedermann der etwas zu tun hatte mit dem zweiten Weltkrieg ist tot. Tot, t-o-t, verstehen Sie? Also, liebe Freunde aus Amerika, bitte, hau ab! By the way, dieser Machismus der aus so vielen Reaktionen hier spricht, ist meiner Meinung nach dem Nazismus näher als das was dem normalen Deutschen beim denken üblich ist.

Dear Americans,

Face it. The American officer tried to use his authority on a Belgian jounalist and on a Belgian security officer, on Belgian soil. Too bad he didn't legally have that authority. He deserved to be taught some manners. Diplomacy is a two way street, and WWII doesn't enter into it.

Cheers!

Exactly, Fred. How often do we hear from Americans this stupid remark: "without us you would speak German now".
People in Dresden have more right to say: without the Americans we would have more family now and more historic patrimonium left....

And Jerome, there'd be more dead Jews, too! And Roma. And homosexuals. And ... and trade unionists. And ...and ...and dwarves! The only good dwarf is a dead one! Eh, Jerome? Damn those interfering Americans.

Wir wissen ja, daß die Deutschen von heute nichts mit dem Nazismus zu tun haben -- und besonders, daß man deutsch sprechen kann, ohne Nazi zu sein! Es bleibt aber einfach wahr, daß ohne das amerikanische Eingreifen im zweiten Weltkrieg würde heute die Mehrheit von Europa noch unter Naziherrschaft stehen. "Ohne uns würden Sie alle heute deutsch sprechen" ist deswegen eine einfache Tatsache, sogar wenn es grob die deutsche Sprache als Symbol für solche Herrschaft ausnutzt. Es ist kein "stupid remark".

Lieber Jerome: Ohne Hitlers Kriegswahnsinn hätten wir und die Briten nicht Dresden bombardieren müssen. Ihm, nicht uns, gehört die Verantwortung.

Zurück zum richtigen Thema von diesem Geblögge: As several commenters have pointed out, security for visiting diplomats is normally administered by the agents of the state the diplomat represents. It seems clear that the European journalists in this incident were not abiding by the security protocols which had been established. The US agents responsible for Dr. Rice's security had not only the right but the duty to make sure that the protocols were enforced, since the Belgians were not enforcing them (as they should have). I certainly do not agree with the comments that the US agent should have used violence against the Belgian official. Nevertheless, his actual words and actions were appropriate and not unmannerly nor "macho".

Jeff: Ich bin britisch und für die Bombardierung von Dresden tief beschämt. Ein Übel rechtfertigt nicht ein anderes Übel

As this thread is about security might I be forgiven for diverting slightly to the Beirut car bomb. A car bomb in Beirut and Brent Sadler is on the spot to report it? Hmmnnn!

Hi there, all this fuss over little old me. That's right, I'm the guy arguing in the photo with the Belgian Protocol Ambassador. Don't believe me? Fine, stop reading.

To answer a few questions. The press was penned and EOD swept. They were screened at the Abelag passenger terminal by a military EOD team. I know this because I did it. I also escorted them out to the tarmac and posted them in the agreed pen where the Belgian Press Liaison and our Embassy agreed they would stay. In fact that’s where they stay for every visit. Nothing new there.

So the plane lands. I position myself between the press and the plane, sunglasses on because airplanes kick up dust and dirt. In addition if the worst happens and there is an explosion I am not blinded by the flash or the debris. Lose you eyes and you are just a casualty. I spent two years on the Secretary of State's Protective Security Detail, I've had my share of flying debris land in my eyes. My job is to be observant and that's hard when a rock is jammed into your eyeball. Besides it was sunny that day anyway. And truthfully what would Hollywood do if we didn't wear sunglasses?

So now the plane parks and from behind me I hear voices saying, "Why can't our press come up to the plane?" I'm thinking, "Because that's not what the press people agreed to.” So I ignore the comments because truthfully, that kind of question arises every time in every country – Especially from folks who have nothing to do with the press. The conversation behind me turns into, “Hey lets get them over here.” I look behind me and I see several people motioning for them to come closer. Not good. I motion back to the press for them to stay put but I am alone and there are probably 10 people now waving them over. The press sees this and I am overruled. Over the barricade they come at a full sprint. Very bad. I won’t go into the history and name all the people who have been attacked/assassinated from the press pool, including a former US President, because honestly, I already screened them. What I was concerned with was the Secretary of State being stampeded by uncontrolled press. If anyone has ever dealt with press before you’ll know they are extremely aggressive. They will get right in the face of whomever they are trying to film. My job in Diplomatic Security (I do not work for Secret Service) is to protect the Secretary or what ever diplomat I am protecting from harm and embarrassment. She (Dr Rice) was definitely heading for embarrassment.

So I did what any security agent is trained to do. I stopped them, holding my arms out in a line. They knew who I was because I swept them and escorted them out there. So they stopped. Security controls the plane. Security protects the principal. I am security. We, in this case Diplomatic Security Service and the Belgian Surete’, control the area immediately around her. This goes for whatever country we are in and the same protection if afforded any Belgian diplomat in the US. A security perimeter is always established and those that are allowed to enter are always strictly controlled. It’s how things are done. The Belgian Ambassador nor his aides were restricted in anyway. On the contrary, they came out of the perimeter to yell at me. No one was trying to impose US law or authority on anyone. But that’s the way the press have spun it. Why because that’s what they get paid for, to make up controversy. So I guess they were successful and they sold a lot of papers and got a lot of viewers for the evening news.

Continuing on now, the press is right in front of the limo and would have had a great shot. I let them that close because I knew who they were but still they don’t need to be in her face. Incidentally, not one of them complained or said anything. Enter the gentleman in the photo from the left. He’s screaming, in English. The Secretary travels to hundreds of countries every year. Do you expect me to be fluent in all those countries? Belgium has three national languages. Which one should I learn? By the way I do speak German; One of Belgium’s three official languages. But Mr. Ambassador chose to speak English. So English it is. Since that is my native tongue how convenient for me. So now I am confronted by a guy shaking with anger and obviously upset. I tell him to calm down a few times but that doesn’t work. He’s yelling that I can’t do that, I can’t give orders and that I need to treat Belgian press and US press equally. Since I have no idea what he’s talking about I initially just blew him off. Remember, I never met this guy. I don’t know who he is. The press is where I want them so I could care less. I am not getting paid to negotiate press access on the Tarmac when the Secretary of State is coming down the ladder. Remember that was done days ago. All I have to do is delay this guy long enough for her to get in the limo and I am done. No harm, no embarrassment. Now he starts pushing me. This is where a Secret Service agent would have put him on the ground. I however understand that this guy is probably someone important so I warn him. One more time and he’s gone. It’s all on tape. Watch it again if you missed that part. In the US I would have arrested him. In Belgium apparently it’s ok to assault someone and have it shown on TV. And we Americans are supposed to be the violent ones?

Show’s over, Secretary’s in the limo and they leave. As I made it back to the Abelag terminal, I never even gave the incident another thought. As I said before, in the years I’ve been doing this, this was not the first press guy who ever yelled at me. It wasn’t till after I got back that I found out who he was. Interesting, I thought. So that was Belgium’s highest-ranking diplomat. Odd way to conduct diplomacy, pushing and shouting, nicht war? But who am I? I am nobody.

So now you know my side of the story.

@DS Special Agent: Thank you for your comments, and honoured to have you on my weblog. From the IP address I can assume that you are who you say you are. In my humble opinion, you did your job well and I hope this incident will not have any negative repercussions on your career.

I guess the main cause of this incident was that the Belgian officials wanted the Belgian press to come closer, so that Belgian TV would have more and better pictures of our minister welcoming Dr Rice. This was against what was previously agreed upon, and you had to come into action.

The mainstream media only showed the pictures without a thorough explanation of the background of all this. Although this incident is of minor importance, I find it fascinating that postings and comments on a weblog can lead to a better understanding of what happened.

Oh, by the way, another blogger has made some piece of art of the incident. Have a look at http://weblog.ded...

@DS-agent

> Do you expect me to be fluent in all those countries?

Sydney Bristow is, and she's what? Half your age?

Thanks Luc. You'll notice from this post my IP address shows I am in Belgium. That's because I live here and work here among you. I have friends that are Belgian and I genuinely like this country. A bit rainy sometimes but you guys sure make good beer. I am home now and in my house located in suburb (commune) by Brussels. My work IP should show up as USA. Our internet is routed through the States.

It's unfortunate this incident happened and it's my sincere hope that all parties involved in this event learned something. Next week the big show begins however and again I'll be involved in that operation. In the meantime I checked out that art from your link. Sheesh do I really have that many chins? Cripes I gotta lose some weight.

dof - "Sydney Bristow is, and she's what? Half your age?"
How old do you think I am?!?! Jennifer Garner is only two years younger than I. Ack.

How reasonable he sounds. And honest, down to earth. And what a convivial guy, after all. And he likes beer. Or is there a team behind this, giving the thing the right spin? Very professionally done, then, boys.

Nice job, ARSO.
WFO thinks you should have jammed him in the chest with your ASP the moment he touched you.
Very proud of ya.

From DS agent I learned what happened.
From the news spin I learned that folks in some Euro-media markets hunger for vindication of their "US as angry bully/Europeans as plucky righteous folks of peace" worldview.
Relax, folks. Give 'em this one. The Iraqi elections have been traumatic for them.
By the way, I took some students to Europe, had a grand time. Our bus driver told me "Nobody messes with me. They know I'm a bus driver, and I'm Belgian." I was never sure what that meant, but he was a kick ass guy.

This goes to show how Belgian media thrive on half-truths and misconstructed intelligence. Missing information gets padded with confabulation. On top of that, the translations were barely appropriate and added to the misinterpretation.

On the other hand, the security officer acted with professionalism and did the job he was paid for, in a courteous manner. In contrast to the Belgian Diplomat (capitals!), who was making a spectacle of himself. I used to think there were minimal standards and qualifications for this kind of job. Apparently, there aren't any.

The sheer amount of hogwash I see posted here is beyond belief.

According to most here everyone and everything should bend a knee to the USA and any and all of it's representatives no matter where they are.

According to most here the only ones actual being able to serve and protect US officials are US agents. Everyone else has to move aside. The sheer utter big headed narcisme of you all would be laughable if it weren't so sad.

Afterall how would you all react if , let's say, the Dutch prime minister arrived in the US, bringing with him a couple of heli's, a couple of thousand man of securtity personel with a demand for a right to shoot first and a right to shoot to kill, hordes of food tasters, legions of guard dogs, etc....
oh and by the way, shutting down airspace for a 20 mile radius where ever he is. You would all ask who does he think he is, you would tell him to F.O. and that he must be a very scared little shit.

You jump on everything that you can think of even when not really knowing what was said or why it was said (see the "it's not your plane remark") and you don't even have the foggiest about your own protocol.

In short.... most of you here are a waste of time, are ill educated, are so besotted with yourselves and anything neocon/Bush and any other rightwing hatemongering idiot and to boot .... very very yella'.

Basher you can take the tin foil hat off your head now.

Basher_of_Idiots,

Step one:
Take out your mallet.

Step two:
Find a mirror.

Step three:
Look in mirror.

Step four:
Strike!

"Much ado about nothing". You have to plead guilty Luc, and I know you loved this ;-)

To round up the story we should also hear the version of His Excellency Patrick Vercauteren Drubbel, former Ambassador of the Kingdom of Belgium to the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg, former chief of cabinet of Louis Michel aka Big Loulou (http://vh.skynetb...), and currently Head of Protocol at the Belgian Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

Right after you posted this item in Dutch, and just judging the videograbs, I commented that the press was _indeed_ too close. Tarmac political asaults have happened before. Apparently there has been a briefing before, but Patrick Vercauteren Drubbel (presumably a worthy alumnus of the Loulou School of Funny Diplomatics) changed the rules on the spot. Wouldn't it be nice if Patrick came forward with his version?

What can we learn from this?
1) VTM saw a sitting duck and they made a fine shot.
2) LVBlog, the same.
3) The proper use of sunglasses.
4) Belgian Diplomacy is still conducted by Loulou-ish jerks.
5) Foreign media still think Belgium is a France-alike chocolate producing country that stops at the perimeter of Brussels.
6) We were lucky we weren't hit by the big one.

Visual Hugo: Didn't you learn about Belgian soil? It was my favorite post, although I can't find it now (someone help me out here). BTW, some Belgians think they are French- a pity!
Barbara
Quid Nimis

->Barbara:

'some Belgians think they are French'.

Well, lots of foreigners still think they're some kind of, and who can blame them, as the old Belgian establishment always tried to fortify the perception, the same establishment which tried to copy the centralized French Jacobin state model with a capital imagining it could think and act for the whole country, the use of the French language as a unifier (but it turned out to be the base of so much discord) and Napoleon's Code Civil as its main law system.
Besides you should not forget that one third of Belgium's French speaking minority watches French (I mean French French, not Belgian French) television stations. As a consequence, they often aren't sure about their own identity (what are they after all, Walloons, French speaking Bruxellois, francophones Belges, or regular French?)and themes or attitudes which come up in the media in France, quickly find fertile ground in French speaking Belgium. You may have noticed so during the Iraq war.
The same cannot be said about the North of the country. The Flemish watch mainly their own (Dutch language) tv stations, which produce most of their programmes themselves. Few Flemish watch Dutch television (meaning the tv stations in the Netherlands). Nearly all fiction seen on Flemish television is locally produced and given a Flemish slant, while French Belgian television would rather invest in French (again French French) telefilms. A lot easier bureaucracywise. Of course these French telefilms again bring a French point of view.
One understands that the Flemish have a much stronger sense of identity - the problem from a classical Belgian point of view is that this stronger identity undermines the old Belgian system. The Flemish have their own nationalism and its demands sap the privileges of the old French speaking elite. So, elaborating on the theory that the Flemish are a pack of fascists ('des fachos')and quite despicable from a moral perspective is a popular pass-time in the South. This rallying cry to circumscribe a real or imagined fascist danger is a very French thing too.

@Witse: "Nearly all fiction seen on Flemish television is locally produced". I don't know which Flemish TV channels you are watching, but at least on Kanaal 2 and VT4 more than half of the programs are American series and movies, and viewers like it that way.

It is of course true that when the Flemish look outward culturally and mediawise, they look mainly towards the Netherlands, the UK and the USA, while the Walloons think that "abroad" means France, the French-speaking parts of Africa and some other countries that have Club Med' resorts. This is why Louis Michel honestly thought he was improving Belgium's image in the world with the things (horresco referens) he did, because French newspapers like Le Monde and Libération were writing in a very positive way about his policies. Of course, at the same time, the Daily Telegraph, the London Times and the Wall Street Journal were all making fun of him.

I'm feeling a greater affinity for the Flemish with each passing day. I guess I'm not imagining that the Flemish are not eager to be lumped with the French speakers, then (I reckoned as much from a comment on my blog.) I wouldn't anyway because I was aware of the cultural differences.

I guess Iwas the only one who likes the post about the soil. Chaqu'un a sa boue, I guess. (sorry, I don't have accent capability on this keyboard!)

Well, Luc, we know now what you're watching. Looks like you belong to this segment of 'young, restless, normless, predominantly male viewers' favouring K2 and VT4 - although, let's admit it, VT4 now tries to move away from this group to conquer the family audience.

OK, may be half their programmes are US series and movies, but what's K2 and VT4's market share? They cater for a niche audience and they don't reflect the average Fleming's viewing behaviour. K2 serves as a garbage bin for the surplus fiction series VTM bought (and had to buy to get the good stuff it wanted)in its (too expensive) package deals with the American majors and which its mass audience rejects on its main channel. So K2 is now in bad shape. VRT doesn't even have any package contract with any American major anymore. It chose to rather invest its money in local production and seems to have been right, judging from its successful spread of a large volume of local fiction throughout its programme schedule.

Of course, you're right about the Flemish looking north and west culturally, and even mediawise - as far as it concerns the active, renewal-oriented segment of the population, but as you know with your media savvy, among tv viewers the more receptive (receptive sounds better than passive) groups looking for confirmation of their world view and expectations, usually prevail. (No wonder a series like 'Witse', for example, is so popular in Flanders, it's the most classical crime fiction format imaginable! It just goes through the same ritual every time!)

@W: what are the more 'receptive' Flemish viewers watching? Yes, granted, Flemish fiction gets the highest ratings, but they're also watching soap series from the Anglosaxon world, like 'Beauty and the Beast', 'Neighbourgs', 'Friends'. Personally I like '24' and 'Seinfeld', and I wouldn't call these 'surplus series'.

But you're right about the renewal-oriented vs. the 'receptive' part of the population. Now I wonder what part of the Walloon population is looking at 'French French' TV instead of 'Belgian French' TV ... the receptive part or the renewal-oriented part?

Those Anglo-Saxon soaps are reasonably popular, but not top popular. When your average Flemish viewer has a choice between and English language soap and a Flemish one, the choice is 200% pro Flemish soap, even if its production value is much less. As a consequence English language soaps are relegated to Access to Prime Time in stead of to real Prime Time. Flemish soaps on the other hand sit bang in the middle of prime time and are even used to make less popular news bulletins more attractive by their proximity.

That Anglo-Saxon soaps are less attractive than local stuff may again be shown by the fact that VRT has let go The Bold and the Beautiful and Days of Our Lives to the competition without any fight. Apparently they weren't worth the trouble. VRT has bought no new Anglo soaps to replace them.
If you're saying '24' and 'Seinfeld' aren't surplus series, you're talking from a personal point of view, as a viewer who's probably keen on 'added value' - but from a marketing angle, they're probably still surplus stuff. 'Seinfeld', anyway, used to be broadcast on one of the main channels (I'm not sure anymore whether it was VRT or VTM), but at what time? Near midnight. Not exactly a proof of popularity.

Considering French Belgian television: you should not reduce its audience to 'Walloons'. One of its problems is precisely the lack of balance in its reflection of both Bruxellois and Walloon views and moods. It's being produced in Brussels, most of it, and a Brussels slant seems to prevail in its programmes.

I'm not sure there a clearcut answer to your question whether it's either the active or the passive viewers who most watch French French tv in Belgium. As usual, the elite is eager to look beyond the borders and to find value added programmes elsewhere. But just because even the masses in French Belgium are less sure about their own identity, they might be satisfied too to find a strong and glamorous cultural model on offer in France to identify with - unlike (most)Flemish who want their own stuff. The glamour of French culture is mostly a rear-mirror case though. French used to be the world's first language. It no longer is. And likewise for French culture.So if we've got to classify viewers in terms of their orientation towards renewal (which is only one feature among many, but which as an outcome of this conversation seems to become an overall criterion, and maybe it ought not to), it's likely French Belgian viewers should be considered as receptive, willing to be pleased in their confirmation of the expected. If one is allowed so much simplification.

Dear W. and Luc,

I hope we don't start judging belgian citizens on their tv-behavior. I think most flemish and walloons are proud of their own culture. Belgium has its own culture, let's all be proud of it and stop the separatistic politicians.

I like your multicultural weblog, Luc, so why do we have to make a difference between flemisch and walloons?

Eendracht maakt macht
L'union fait la force

Dear Yves,

1. 'Belgium has its own culture'. That's a thought-provoking statement, but you don't argue your case at all, do you? I would be happy to hear your arguments. Pride doesn't count as one.
2. I don't think I was trying to 'judge' people. And I wasn't trying to 'make a difference' between the Flemish and the Walloons, and being a separatistic politician would exhaust me too much. I was just trying to describe reality, and referring to real-life facts in a certain field to prove my description. I might be wrong though. So I'm quite interested in elements discrediting my position.
3. Television is so all pervasive nowadays it would be a shame not to use it as a source of information about the people who watch it. It's also frightfully market-oriented now, so chances are it really reflects its audience's mentality, moods and culture, and I'm sorry to have to tell you, all the elements point at two different large scale markets for tv in Belgium. You would find a similar picture when studying the situation for daily papers, for political parties, for advertising, for books, for education ... In each case you'd find two markets - existing simply to supply what the two cultures underneath them demand.
4.You seem to see multiculturality as a positive thing. I suppose you're aware of the fact that this multiculturality is only possible if one's willing to discern more than one culture, and the only way to discern more than one culture is by acknowledging their differences. So if you're so fond of multiculturality, what's wrong about the Flemish and Walloons being different?

I am Belgian & proud to be - but what a silly show of somebody who is supposed to have a leading role in our diplomacy. He's clearly a frustrated man.

How reasonable the explanation the DS special agent may seem. He is totally wrong. The airport is belgian soil and he has to obey Belgian law. In the US, the police or security services may dictate where, when and how the media may work, but in Belgium we have FREE PRESS.
So, if you want to obey or use US law: stay in the embassy or on other US soil.µ
I fully support the belgian diplomatic protocol officer. He's knows what Belgian souverity means. He's a belgian, I'm and I'm proud to have such an officer for my country.

Belgium is an independent country. This isn’t Afghanistan, Guantanamo or Iraq, suffering from American hegemony. We are a proud and free nation. An American Security officer has to work with but under his Belgian counterpart. In this land there is also freedom of press. So if those American bastards think they can come to Belgium and play boss, let them think twice. I would gladly kick them out myself. America is an aggressive country with “leaders” who lie to justify a war, they are not very democratic, they torture prisoners and they are very eager to push there point of view on the rest of us. With or withou force. Personally, if I would be an American, I’d shoot myself.

Americans are sad people! They only think about themselves, and on top of that, they make themselves believe that they are good! If this incident would have happend in the US. you guys would have reacted even worse(has you guys always do!!) believ it or not but you are very sad people! calling it a democratic country but when an other country has a different opinion about something you guys start to boycot such a country! and don't let me start talking about your guys standards because I just can't go that low!
Anyway, you guys had the oportunity to do something about 3 months ago and you guys screwed up again! but it's good to know that most idiot's have left Europe a long time ago!
BTW, you don't speak american............you speak English!

@ W.
1. Every country has it culture, USA, belgium, france, china, whatever, they all have they culture, asking proof of that is stupid.

2. You dont have to try to make a difference there is a difference between walloons and flemisch belgians, just like there is a difference between californians(?) and texans.

3. Your right there, TV is being used a means to dispurs propaganda and to influence people . The 2 channels are devided but more out of budgetaire reasons then other. The "wallon" channel has far less money and has to satisfie itself with cheaper shows/programs then there flemisch counterparts.

4.Nothing wrong with them being different as long as they can talk to each other, just like europa and the US ;-)

Sorry DS Special Agent. Sorry Luc...for the wrong info.

I thought that the press didn't get screened as I took them directly from the gate to the press stand. They didn't come out of the General Aviation terminal where the screening machine is.

It is true that I wasn't with them before that and that didn't see the search by the military AOD Team.

But again, as I told you before, the same kind of thing happened during the Chinese prime minister arrival in Brussels and nobody ever talked about it.

There is a strong Anti-American feeling in Belgium. It is in fashion to hate Americans nowadays and it really saddens me.

As in general about the event:

media blew something up that was mainly nothing more then a dispute between the US and belgium security/gouv' forces

1 . The belgian protocal chief was partly right, partly wrong. Agreements should have been made before rize landed not while she was landing .

2. The US agent was also both right and wrong, yes he had every reason to stop those reporters but no he had no reason talking like that. He is still on belgian soil .

3. Some people argue this was a setup, this to me is BS this isnt a big conspiracy of an "anti-US" gouv' to embares the USn this was an incident because some people didnt do there job, nothing more nothing less .

En example:

("Who do these pushy Americans think they are bringing thier own security detail whereever they go! They do not trust us? They think that they are better than everyone else? They think that they are special? We will show them!" Only of course, it would be in that french accented dialect of Dutch the Belgians use, but I'd be willing to put money on the fact that something like that was said at a very high level of the Belgian security. )

No it was not, this may come as a surprise to you but most belgians dont hate US, dont think they are all arogant SOB's and dont refer to the US as "the little satan". Most belgians like the US and its people, they just dont like bush for various reasons.
4.An important factor of this is also langauge, the french speaking protocal chief speaking bad english, the english speaking agent cant speak french . They have trouble communicating and this leads to problemd. I think there are agent that can speak french (or there should be) so why not use them? I know some in the US think everybody speak english but in most countrys thats not the case, a little bit of respect couldnt hurt .

As a summary ;
It would be better to put all problems on television and in the newspaper that occur due to the new generation and their new experimental games and theft. Did you knew that nobody in todays world will ever know and understand what mighty jets took of for far away countries from the spot you stould. Check it out, you even wont have the records. Showattitude is not good for anyone, It would be better to have all crimes for the latest 18 months that happened in Belgium and most certainly Flanders in the newspapers or at least identify the sect behin it ( één ) in detail instead of playing or trying to play with people who should be !
Groundmatters alsways lead to those things, sadly !

IT'S SAD TO SEE HOW SCARED MANY AMERICANS ARE FOR EVERYBODY AND EVERYTHING. "Shoot and ask questions later." What's left of the flower power generation? The peace and love?
Why holding on to conservatives like that? I think the media scares the population. People are tense when someting out if the ordanary happens. The ordenary is well defined in the US. The land of the free? What a joke!
And yes the Belgian diplomat may have overreacted, but still, you're a guest. Behave like one!
Love

en er van uit gaan dat alleman uw taal spreekt kan me ook mateloos storen!

rascal
"Americans are probably 1000 different nationalities, they are THE model of how a modern and well-integrated society should be.

But I am glad to see Eurotrash getting offended culturally when they ravaged other nations (like my own) for hundreds of years."

THE model of a modern society?? Right on! Way to go rascal! Narrow mindedness rules US politics. 30% of your people is poor and living in trailers, can't pay medical expenses, thanks to the oh so great social security policy. Open your eyes please.

Still, happy to see so many americans are aware that there's more than the US. What our nations have been doing in the past isn't good at all, but what your administration is doing these days is exactly the same, a bit less primitive maybe, but hey, we're living in 2005.

Please quit quarreling about minor issues. Condi showed her good intentions, hope she speaks for her weapon dealing cowboy friends...

blablabla

impression on the whole of this ;

1. American Sunglasses are cool !
2. Belgium diplomats want to be on Television too !
3. The newspaper people are Happy they filled a page!
4. The person who took the pictures is Happy !

But ; nothing actually happened so what can we Belgiums
say, next time at least check out the Plane who took of at
the time this happened, it could be Huge news and next time
send a warning over the Internet because we want to see
real life discussion with popcorn too ! Zaventem is an
excellent accomodation for this.

Well, i am a Belgian and i hope the kill Bush when visiting my great nation.

Well, i am a Belgian and i hope the kill Bush when visiting my great nation.

anyway, the american ambassador in belgium apologised for the incident. he said the diplomatic securtity went too far.

It's like we say in Belgium: "Olleke Bolleke Rubisolleke"

Eat this Americans ... you ARE in Belgium and you WILL behave according to belgian rules. The world is not yet yours - and hopefully will never be!

Great to know that at least one of our diplomats has the guts to stand up for our rules and that he's not impressed with the US Secret service guys - they are just annoying and acting like they personally own the whole world. Including that damned plane. Including Zaventem. Like we say in Belgium: "omhooggevallen nietsnutten"

Most of the people here venting vicious and childish hatred toward Americans do not seem to have bothered to read the descriptions above of what actually happened. The US and Belgian officials had agreed beforehand to the security rules for the press. The press then violated those rules, rushing toward the plane. The Belgian authorities were not enforcing the rules they had agreed to, so the US agents had to do so, in order to protect Dr. Rice from being mobbed. Then the DS agent in the pictures was confronted with an enraged, yelling-and-shouting, pushing-and-shoving person (if I'd been there, I'd have suspected the guy of being drunk based on his behavior), whose identity he didn't know. He defused the confrontation with considerable self-restraint and professionalism.

There's nothing the US agents could have done that would satisfy the America-haters here except to ignore their duties and let Dr. Rice get mobbed. For that matter, there's nothing our entire nation could do to make these bigots happy except surrender to the terrorists and commit suicide. This kind of hatred isn't a point of view, it's a mental pathology.

like you know all of this jeffke! were you in zaventem yourself when they talked about it?
and the rest of them who wrote sth about rules and surpression of European countries should better read some more or learn to controle their silly mind!
btw: maybe you helped Europe with WWII but Europe helped you when they found you around 1493!
greetings

@DS
What I find bizar is that you're even allowed to say your version of the situation.
We now know your face, btw.
What else do we know, seemingly you were the sole person around to halt the press, beside the tight security cordon around Miss Rice.

Either way, I doubt you can expect a "close up & personal" attack at our international airport, but still one has to remain aware.
There are sufficient spots around Brussels Intl to bring down that Boeing and get away with it.

Beside that, I'd remark : How come you didnt know who that other guy was ?

I'm somewhat stressed for the coming week.

Knowing there have been reports of small testbombs (that I remember, in the past months), 2 foiled attacks in Antwerp..and just a couple days ago the Bomb Disposal Unit removes a bucket filled with explosives under a bridge in Antwerp area.

Sheraton Enviroment. I wonder what putz selected that area.
Too crowded, important subway station, important railstation, important shopping street, de Kleine Ring; bad neighbourhood in general.
I'd guess the US would want to impose a 800m radius restriction area (M40 Max range)..which is utter insanity.
You cant shut down the "kleine ring" either.

On the Language Question...German ? ha ha, better learn Dutch..although the tribals could skin you for talking Dutch :).

The US Embassy is safer & has better access to the institutions...still tricky position.

If I had my pick, I'd stuff'em outside Brussels.
I'd pick Dilbeek; De Waerboom.
Easy to secure with ground forces (we're supposed to have an army...somewhere), highway close-by, possible airlift capability,...(you can land nearby the EU institutions on the Cinquantenaire park; NATO HQ is no problemo).

@Jeff: "There's nothing the US agents could have done that would satisfy the America-haters here except to ignore their duties and let Dr. Rice get mobbed. For that matter, there's nothing our entire nation could do to make these bigots happy except surrender to the terrorists and commit suicide."

It's not really a question of America-haters. It's a question of blunders. And the American guy wasn't blundering (his sunglasses are cool). The Belgian Loulou-alumnus was. Who could hate America anyway? You gave us Coke-Diet, Elvis Presley (he lives!), Michael Jackson, Las vegas, the Marx Brothers, Woody Allen, Howard Stern, and the Grand Canyon. ;-)

A futile incident, and the two sides get emotionally involved (diplomatically and here on this site). An example of how the relations between Europe and the US are sickened.

I protested against the second Iraqi-American war in Brussels before it started, and I'm still not satisfied with the reasons given to justify them (good results however are indeed the - hopefully fruitful - elections and the relative freedom). Negatively (apart from the victims of the war), there will be pitiable consequencies for both the US and Europe because of all the Islamic hatred provoqued by the war and western meddling in the Middle-East (see for example the recent warning of the CIA for nuclear terrorism).

But as both the US and Europe are mentally still considered as "The West" (cfr. Huntington) - despite tendencies of some European countries (France, Germany, Belgium,..) to provide another constitution - the favourable solution seems to me a renewal of American and European tolerance.

We, Europeans, can not deny having an inferiority complex with respect to the US, concerning politically and military influence. Because of the EU's growing economic importance and American economic problems (cfr. the increasing American public debts, the historic deficiency of the public budget and huge negative trade balance) Europeans know the US is not almighty and must cooperate with them. Frustratingly, they act as if they won't (recently however, the Bush-administration seems to be willing to be more cooperative with Europe). This is an important reason why many Europeans (and readers of this site) fulminate against the US. Europe wants a better position in international politics and doesn't get it yet.

On the other hand, Americans are frustrated by the reactions they get from Europeans concerning a policy they think is right. For them, America is being mistreated and misunderstood by a negative Europe, which they don't understand.

In my opinion, many problems, misunderstandings and frustrations could be canalized, when Europe would take an equal political position to the US (like they already have on the economic level) and being treated like that by the US (which means not only wanting and taking, but also giving, understanding and taking account of).

In that case, the public opinion in Europe will become more in favour of the US, Europe will again be a motivated ally of the US - with support of it's citizens, unlike the pro-war Blair-administration with a resulting protesting country - , and US and European citizens will have common goals and needs, resulting in mutual understanding and appreciation.

> We, Europeans, can not deny having an inferiority complex with respect to the US, concerning politically and military influence.

OTOH, It's more than compensated by my superiority complex over my 65% marginal tax rate. Top that, you wimpy Americans!

You are right, Jeff. It is, indeed, pathological and has to do with Europe's "frog psychology." I did an article on this in The Wall Street Journal in April 1985. The examples are a bit outdated, but the point is still valid.
http://www.secess...

Now consider this.
Below is the link to a sticker that is being distributed by the (youth branch of the) Flemish Socialist Party (SPA), one of Belgium's (four) governing parties. It shows Bush's head and the caption says: "Go ahead. Piss on me"
and "Give Piss a Chance."
As you know, Dubya will be arriving in Brussels next Sunday. The stickers are free and can be ordered from the Socialist Party. They have been made to be placed in urinals, so that (male) Belgians can aim at Bush and, as the press release says "make a statement and show in a playful manner that we do not like the policies of the American president and his visit to our country."

As this is the governing (!) Socialist Party speaking, it shows what Bush's Belgian hosts think of him.

http://www.s-p-a....

http://www.s-p-a....

Ja Paul Beliën, jij hebt ook verstand van generalizeren. Starten bij enkele puberale jong-socialisten die willen provoceren, dan de SPA ermee gelijkstellen, daarna de regering gelijkstellen met de socialisten, en hup met 'Belgian hosts' moeten onze Amerikaanse vrienden eigenlijk de indruk krijgen dat heel het land in pissoirs op die arme jongen uit Texas piest. Nou, ik doe niet mee hoor. Mooi sloganesk. Waar heb je dat geleerd? Bij de partij van het vrouwtje? Is het de bedoeling weer 100 schuimbekkende reacties van de kleine groene voetballetjes uit te lokken? Polarizeren? Misschien lukt het nog wel. Allez, groetjes.

It's not diplomatically nice to shove a visiting foreign minister's security detail aside like they were nothing.

Oh, they didn't act like they were nothing, Ciggy. On the contrary. They own the world.

@Sequenator
Generaliseren? De link waar ik naar verwijs staat op de officiële site van de SP.a. De pis-sticker is bedacht door een medewerker van vice-minister VandeLanotte. Als hier geen sancties volgen vanwege de SP.a tegen de verantwoordelijken, dan is inderdaad de SP.a mede verantwoordelijk.
En ook de regering is verantwoordelijk, want dergelijke dwaasheden worden bedacht - en uitgewerkt - op een kabinet van een vice-premier. Het onmiddellijk ontslag van de betrokkene(n) is het minste wat we hier mogen verwachten.

@Bill Sequenator: You say (in Dutch) dat the "Piss-on-Bush" sticker is a gimmick of the young socialists (apparently an autonomous organization), and that it is not representative of the Flemish socialist party nor of the Belgian government. That is correct: Steve Stevaert, president of the Flemish socialist, has officially distanced himself from the action, according to an article in today's newspaper De Morgen.

But as far as the "polarization effect" is concerned, I constantly see the Belgian press playing this "polarization game" by artificially emphasizing and exaggerating the differences between the US and Europe towards their own readership (or viewership).

This "polarization game" of the Belgian media is occasionally exposed towards an international audience (especially the US public) by some bloggers like me. By doing so, we hope to confront these media with their responsibility.

You can't hope to deliberately incite anti-Americanism among your own audience by unbalanced reporting, and then be mad at the people who expose this towards the world. If you feel troubled that hundreds of Little Green Footballs readers are mad at Belgium, then blame those readers or blame Belgium, but do not blame the messengers that are transferring Belgian media reporting towards those readers, or that are reporting on Belgian politics.

You have a point on the generalization, but in my humble opinion the young socialists with their "Piss-on-Bush" stickers are doing more for polarization, than Paul Belien did by mixing the young socialists with the socialists. The generalization and the exposure are means to confront them with their responsibility.

Belgians have the right to know what American media are telling the American public, and Americans have the right to know hat Belgian media are telling the Belgian public. That's why I would like CNN USA (instead of the very boring CNN International), as well as Fox News, on Belgian cable (but I bet this will never happen). And that's why I occasionally will be reporting about Belgian media on this blog, when I think it will interest an international audience.

> De pis-sticker is bedacht door een medewerker van vice-minister VandeLanotte.

Het ding was al in gebruik voor de verkiezingen in 04:

http://www.slantp...

What have we got here?

- An protocol chief who apparently has been improperly informed, and who seems to be far too irritable for a top diplomat. Was he drunk? On medication? Did he have an argument with his wife?
- A rigid security agent. Can't blame him for that, a lax security agent is like a monolingual interpreter.
- A banal incident spun out by trashy repoters. Why are it always the same TV stations that go for the cheap shots? And to think that US TV generally is far worse... oh well, let's go on.
- A weblog picking up te story.
- An then, just when we thought we'd seen it all, the worst morons of both the US and Belgium come in, in a coordinated effort to flood this forum with brain-dead commentaries. More than half of you guys even make me ashamed to be human. Get a life. No, on second thought, don't. Just get lost.

Hmmm, there seem to be quite a few loonylefty moonbats around this evening.

Haven't got much time.

First, to our American friends: don't notice stupid f*cks like Jeroen, Tom and Dhr T. The Left is losing and they know it, the Right is gaining strength.

Second, I look forward to welcoming President Bush in Belgium.

Third, I now take a Giant Virtual Leak on Animo.

Nite all.

Luc, I have to applaud your efforts to drive a few ventilation holes through the polarizing barrier of mutual incomprehension and disdain which has developed between Europe and the US, at least as far as large sectors of public opinion are concerned. In the US we have found that a major contribution which bloggers can make is to hold the conventional media accountable for the ideological slants in their reporting. Creating a forum where Americans can see and comment on European media (and hopefully vice versa as well) can play the same role. Of course the hateful bigots will make a lot of noise, but in this format they cannot drown out the more rational voices.

The "hater" problem is not only on the European side. Just as a lot of bigoted Europeans seem to generalize Americans as arrogant and militaristic morons (oddly enough, we are also called both too materialistic and too religious at the same time), so the right-leaning blogosphere in the US has a tendency to dismiss Europeans in general as sniveling pacifist Jew-hating cowards who would rather let their whole continent go the way of Theo van Gogh than take a firm stand against Islamic terrorism. "Liberals" as a class, not just the extreme leftists, are similarly demonized. This kind of thing bothers me a great deal.

As for silliness like the "Bush piss stickers", well, in a free society people have the right to insult powerful officials in such ways. I think the existence of these stickers says far more about the immaturity of their creators than about Bush. As far as I'm concerned, those people are welcome to advertise their stickers and show off their childish hate for all to see.

I did not vote for Bush, by the way. I am against most of his domestic agenda. But 51% of my co-citizens felt otherwise, and so their side carried the day. That's democracy.

Paul Belien's WSJ article reminds me of something I have often thought: Imagine that the Cold War had gone the other way and the US had collapsed, leaving the USSR as the sole, overwhelmingly-dominant superpower. Any open-minded person knows that in that situation, the triumphant USSR would have exploited its supremacy far more arrogantly and brutally than the US has done. Instead of needing to invent causes for offense out of things like a diplomatic security agent simply doing his job, Europeans would find they had a lot of real abuses to complain about -- not that it would be wise to complain under those circumstances.

No country likes to see some other country in such a "monopolar" dominant position as the US holds. But the US has shown far more ethical and civilized behavior than most nations would do if they had the kind of power that we have.

@VisualHugo: If the US had indeed "given" Michael Jackson to Europe, the European America-haters might have a point. However, we still have him -- hopefully soon in San Quentin.:-)

Perhaps it will interest you that the "piss on bush" urinal stickers have been devised by Laurent Winnock, president of the Young Socialists, the official youth branch of the governing Socialist Party (SPA). As my previous message shows, the stickers can be ordered through the official website of the SPA. The leftist (and biased) newspaper De Morgen writes that the Socialist Party has nothing to do with the campaign, but this is untrue (as much in the reporting of De Morgen is). The party refused to distance itself from Winnock, who works in the office of Johan Vande Lanotte, Belgium's Vice Prime Minister and Minister of the Budget.
The Belgian government is hosting Bush next week. I have never heard of a guest being insulted by a host in this fashion before.
If Fidel Castro was treated in this way, it would be a major diplomatic incident.

> Perhaps it will interest you that the "piss on bush" urinal stickers have been devised by Laurent Winnock, president of the Young Socialists.

What's this, are my comments invisible to other people?

Winnock, didn't "devise" anything, those stickers date back to the '04 presidential elections. Clearly Winnock has been "economical with the truth".
http://www.slantp...

'To protect and to serve' is your job and you did a good job at Brussels airport. Greetings from a proud Belgian

@Paul Beliën: speaking of fine humour:

http://www.vbj.or...

Of course this an embarrassing situation and I’m very sorry that it is this image of the Belgian civil servants and in extenso ‘the Belgians’ that reaches the American public. I understand the reaction of the DS agent of stopping the press, they were crossing lines and if that belonged to my responsibility, I would have stopped them too. The Protocol Chief’s handling of the situation is indeed very unprofessional and the pushing-thing is just off scale unprofessional. I would understand his, then justified, anger if the agent had actually handed out orders without any authority and necessity in relation with his assignment, but this being not the case, it’s just embarrassing.
What really shocked me are the reactions on the American blogs like to one's at the bottom of this page, really amazing. Why that need to boast with physical power? Nobody (accept Kim maybe) will deny that the U.S. military is just about a generation ahead of the rest of the world but do those bloggers really think that the DS agent beating up the Protocol Chief would have been a more ‘honorable’ behavior, representing a more truthful outing of the American way of handling things? I can’t believe the agent sees it this way, it’s not how I see America anyway. And what’s with the frenchy-fag-poirot-poodle association? I’m not one of those war for oil people with hate-Bush bumper stickers but I think you can seriously and fundamentally criticize his foreign policy (also much of his policies at home, but that’s not really our business), does that make me an anti-America? Since I happen to really like that country, seems to me that it doesn’t.
Don’t let the unprofessional handling of this situation by one civil servant determine your opinion about Belgians. Instead look for example at Belgium’s role in the U.N. in it’s early days (P.H. Spaak) and in building the E.U. Instead visit Brussels, Antwerp, Bruges, Ghent, Louvain, the Ardennes, some of the museums that show world-class art. Have dinner in one of best restaurants of Europe, or just have some fries with some fine beer (try the Ciney spécial ;-) ). Just look at more things than some particular political events, many (but still to few) Europeans do the same towards the U.S. Cheers!

@Belgian student: The weird macho rhetoric you are noticing is just a relic of our chimpanzee ancestry, called an "intimidation display" by primatologists, in which males try to assert their dominance over other males by making terrifying screeching noises, shaking their fists, etc. in an effort to intimidate rivals. Humans add verbal language to the display, but it's basically the same thing. All human males in all cultures engage in intimidation displays from time to time in various situations (think of the fans at some soccer/"football" games in Europe). Most humans manage to bring a more sober and rational approach to serious confrontations, fortunately.

I'm sure Belgium is a great place to visit. Only fools would judge Europe (or America) solely by the worst things they hear about it.

What Belgians ?
*Looks around.
There are some Belgians, but mainly there are only Flemings & Walloons.

----
They're "preparing" for the protests at my university...buncha numnutses..they did the same thing when the Invasion of Iraq started....ah well it was an extra day off when "cowboy Bush" (Professor's words) invaded Iraq...good thing, I got to watch it in Surround on TV.

Let us not forget, the Al Samoud, fully loaded, had a range of 169 and 190 km according to the UN (that is for the Light & Heavy version of the missile)whilst the range for Iraqi Ballistic Missiles was restricted to 150 km.
Thats a ruling from the "surrender"-agreement of Iraq in 91, sufficient to blow up the agreement and move in.

Regardless of those things : How many of you would have invaded just to depose a dictator ?
Many to whom I've posed that question evade the situation.
I call them Cowards+, and there are many among us that just dont want to fight unless they get hit in the face.

Luckyly not all of us are like that, the US has to understand that. Thing is, there always have been differences in approaches & stances between the US & the EU.

Deposing a Dictator is a sufficient reason for me, therefor the 03 invasion comes a decade too late. But better late, than never.

@Paul Belien....our paths cross again...except that usually happens after I buy "the Bible" on Wednesdays (Tuesday in Antwerp) ;p .

@Jinxy! - there you are!

@DS Agent - thanks for taking shit for doing your job. A true professional! I'd buy you a beer if you were in CA. Stay safe.

This was an Insult!!!

First of all... you guys don't know the whole story... Don't criticize if you don't know what happened!

- The press WAS ALLOWED to come closer by the American Gourvernment!!! Why do they ignore their own government? For safety reasons? You think that Europeans are going to kill Rice? In Belgium people don't shoot presidents or ministers... (In America people do...)

- There were 10x more Belgian secret agents on the airport, it was an insult to them not to thrust the belgian secret service...

- They were on European Airspace/Ground... as long I know, it's not the property of the Americans...

- Rice was well protected, but do you that that Europeans are that stupid to reveal everything? Were not American, we keep those things secret...

- America doesn't own the world, if they don't want to get isolated, they'll have to change their policies!

I know this sounds rude for Americans... but I really feel insulted... Why are our people not good enough for the Americans? Give one good reason, and I'll stop talking about it... Don't tell Europe is unsafe, because in Euopese we don't need metaldetectors at schools or snipers to protect our king... We have muslims living in our country, but don't listen to your gouvernment that tells you that all muslims are the root of evil, because they're not!!! We're living in peace! We don't threathen them, they don't hurt us... They call this harmony... but yeah, we're not trying to control the world and that's why we don't have to fear invissible and sometimes non-existing enemies... Bush has won the elections by scaring everybody and that's why you have become paranoid! Don't hate the rest of the world because they are different, because you are a part of that world! Don't try to tell other people/countries what they have to do, because you don't want that other people would do the same with America.
I think it's unfair for those Belgian guys to say that they're dumb or something... They know at least the whole story!
Please live in harmony with the world, and the world will live in harmony with you... We're not naive, but weapons don't safe people...

and YES I'm Belgian, 18 years and I think it's time for peace!

@ Paul Belien

Even Americans buy those stickers :D
Not everybody loves Bush (crf. Kerry fans ;)

Freedom is an American ideal, why don't you share it with us and buy a sticker ;)

@ DS Special Agent

Thanks for your story!

I'm waiting for the Belgian Agent to tell his version ;)

But yeah, incidents occur, but I think that everybody was stressed..., but I hope you can forgive that guy and that we can drink a good Belgian beer together ;)

Come on, stop basking in the typical Flemish prejudice over "belges francophones", we are Belgian, we sure give more audience to French media, but we give a lot of attention to the Flemish as well!

Frankly, we have nothing in common (besides language) with the French, we don't think of ourselves as the greatest nation in the whole world, we have self-humor, we enjoy life, but it is true we condemn racism more openly than you Flemish - and the French! But it's not a reason to tell that we don't like you.

The thing is that we are not nationalist and that is a fact. Nationalism gave birth to the worst horrors of mankind history: colonialism, genocide, persecution - all in the name of the Nation or some flag or some crazed dictator. We have our own responsibility in Congo and we admitted - unlike the French who did great harm in Algeria, Indochina, overseas territories, ...

For this I am glad that there is no strong "Belgian" nationalism but rather a set of locales - Thanks for listening

hmmz, these US secret service diplomatic security agents have orders that they have to forfill. That is agreable but reporters are very annoying people and I can understand the statement of the agent a bit although he is a bit rude. No problems here...

i'm sick and tired the americans all think that we are just some guys who have nothing to say and just follow what france does. totaly untrue! maybe we have the same opinion but that doesn't mean they told us to have it! maybe it was wrong the belgian guy started pushing the american and saying it was his plane, but it was totaly rude he said that german thing. do you realy think wer are that stupid that we would let terrorists get around the plane? do you realy think they weren't scanned? it's a frigging airport, they HAVE to go trough scanners, and as far as i know, there hasn't been any kind of terrorism in belgium so far.it's the first time I heard that we are chocolate poodles, I have no idea who comes up with BS like that.

Dirk: "Give one good reason, and I'll stop talking about it..."

Dude, you are 18 years old? Well, one reason might be the 7,000 or so American GIs who gave their life in December '44/January '45 so that you can anno 2005 you could be sitting on your warm ass spouting nonsense and feeling soooooo morally superior. Probably a couple of thousands of these boys were also 18 years old. Unlike you they could not choose how to spend their life. Go on "feeling insulted" you idiot. And I am not even talking about the 70,000 or so wounded.

"but don't listen to your gouvernment that tells you that all muslims are the root of evil, because they're not!!!"

Immediately after 9/11 President Bush called Islam a religion of peace... in soothing down public anger in the US he doubtlessly prevented widespread riots with many Muslim victims. I sometimes wonder if Jacques Chirac would have been able to calm down the French if the Eiffel Tower had been brought down with 3,000 Parisians dead.

"We're living in peace! We don't threathen them, they don't hurt us... They call this harmony... "

You only live in peace because basically every week there's a roundup of Muslim terrorist cells somewhere in Europe. I guess you never noticed with your head full of smoke and all that but London Police Chief John Stevens asserted in November 2004 that his men had prevented a second Madrid.

"and YES I'm Belgian, 18 years and I think it's time for peace!"

I think it's time you put out your shoes and socks, stand in a pot of earth, ask someone to our water in it, eat three cartons of Nootropil and try to grow a brain.

Chill out.
You know how many of our troops died holding a small patch of ground in Western Flanders during WWI.
Without that piece of land the Germans would have been able to shut down the N French Coast and surround allied troops.
There would have been no need for ww2.

Additionally the nazis have proposed surrenders on several occasions in 1944. They gave Western Europe back, and the West would stop attacking and let the Nazis retreat their forces to face & beat the Soviets...Unfortunately the West was in Northern France and there were elections coming up (US 7 Nov 1944, IIRC) and victory was o-so-near.

Beside those facts; both are right and wrong.
Yes its European land.
Why were Americans even protecting the wide area ?
Let the Americans do the close-on-the-skin protection and let us do the area protection (such as the media etc). Otherwise set up mixed teams for wide area.

What a boring world it must be from a Belgian perspective and to what trouble do the Belgians go to bring some thrill to it if two chaps at an airport snarling at one another leads to 200 posts on a website, or to offer another example, if silly stuff about who was really Kabila's daddy in a press dossier lead to a front page article and some additional pages filled with the item in a Brussels newspaper.

I'm not quite sure my argument holds, but I'll give it a try anyway :

Maybe it's a good idea the NATO headquarters (and some ohter international organisations) are located in Belgium. There are ofcourse historical reasons, and it is generally a good place to live, but there is something else : the Belgians are considered as rather "flexible". I mean, if a US agent would have to take up a rigid Dutch or a proud French security organisation, it might have been more difficult. The comming visit to Brussels by preseident Bush requires a big security organisation, and to a certain level the American security services can have it "their way". They already have hundreds of security people stationed in and around Brussels, and I'm not quite sure they will receive orders from Belgian security services.

Some proud Belgians (well, Walloons and Flemish people) on this forum/blog probably don't like the idea, but this mild degree of "flexibility" can also be explained as "less professional" or "weak", but it's in my humble opinion also a quality. Don't forget Belgium has huge internal political problems, but a lot of Belgians take the attitude "let the politicians argue" and they then continue their normal life. These internal political problems sometimes lead to shouting, angry news paper articles, stressfull cabinet meetings, clownesk behaviour in the national parliament, but ... there is NO violence involved, the general climate is good, and according to many international statistics Belgium is still (after Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Canada, ...) one of the most "comfortable" places to live in.
The quarreling, the shouting (including on this forum) is part of the charm of the place. Live and let live.

Oh yes, one more point. Since the late 50's European institutions are (partially) located in Brussels. Since almost half a century thousands of foreign head of states, delegations, presidents and so on have visited Belgium. I'm ofcourse not betting on what the future might hold, but until now NONE of these visitors were victim of terrorism or other evil, maybe except some eager journalists pushing microphones in their face. So the Belgian security services, whoever they are lead by, seem to do a decent job.

A many Belgians I'm NOT a big fan of Bush, but as far as I'm concerned he is welcome here. Don't forget that when he can't convince the Europeans to go in this or that direction, maybe Europe can try and convince HIM to change direction (ok, that is less likely, but there needs to be a dialogue).

I follow Nick in great lines.
The most serious "terrorist" attack I remember were some pies flying into the faces of some VIP's.
I'm not too confident that "Many Belgians arnt a big fan of Bush". I believe most ppl dont really give a damn.
Felxibility is a strong point, another strong point is multilingualism.
Lets not forget that president is a Juicy target.
If there will be attack, I doubt it will be up close & personnel since Bush will remain secured...unless things totally go wrong. If there is to be an attack, I fear it will be a distance attack. I've been looking at the problem, and I have an answer...I just hope, for any possible event, there are Battlefield surveillance systems and/or Weapon Location Radars in place.

@ The Outlaw

You guys don't have to start about WW2 because we did the same in 1465 and later... Without Europe, there were no American soldiers in WW2...

2nd, we're NOT FRANCE, we have NOTHING to do with FRANCE!!! We're an INDEPENDANT country with other laws, other systems and other thoughts! and btw... The Eifel Tower is a monument of FRANCE.

I still have much to learn, indeed, I already know 5 languages and I want to learn some more... but I know that there was no threath if America stopped the problems in the middle east... You'll think that terrorists will stop if you bomb them? If their wives and children die (by bombes, hunger, etc...) they have nothing to live for and will do everything for revenge! You'll create new terrorits (cfr. Iraq) by hurting peoples feelings! You're solving a home-made problem! Why do we Europeans have to pay for American problems? Without America invading Iraq, there wouldn't be an attack in Iraq! I'm not telling that there are no terrorists or something, I'm telling you that solving the problem isn't the way it should be! Example: if they kill your wife and children because another gouvernment thinks that your country had weapons of mass destruction (wich will be never found) would you want revenge? would you? Do you want your family to die because other people, 1000 km have decided to start a war? How would that feel for you? How many people joined the army after WTC2001? It's the same thing, all to take revenge! When I was 6, we did the same thing at school, if somebody kicked me, I kicked back, it's the same thing.

And why do you attack me personally? Am I different because I'm 18? Don't I have the right to say what I think? We're free to do and think what we want, isn't it... Or is the world free to think and do what America wants...

@ Nick

Good arguments! I can follow you 100% :)

I'm also not a big fan of Bush, but I think that he's welcome! Europeans and Americans can learn a lot of each other! (at least if they are both will to learn something)
We're very multicultural and freedom is also an European idea.

@Dirk: dude, I'm a BELGIAAAAAAANNNN!!!! I am NOT an American!!!

"You guys don't have to start about WW2 because we did the same in 1465 and later..."

Stop with the marijuana. Apart from Philips The Good calling together the "Staten-Generaal" for better administering his lands (the future Holland and Belgium) I don't recall anything important in 1465, certainly not Belgian Paras going to the rescue of the Americans.

"2nd, we're NOT FRANCE, we have NOTHING to do with FRANCE!!! We're an INDEPENDANT country with other laws, other systems and other thoughts! and btw... The Eifel Tower is a monument of FRANCE."

Sigh... you understand nothing at all do you? It was just an example. OK, how 'bout this: do you think King Albert would have done as good a job in calming down Belgians as did Bush with Americans, if Islamonazis had flown a Boeing into the Atomium with 3,000 Belgians dead?

I have heard the biggest part of your expose a million times before and it is not even worth commenting about it anymore. Like I said, try to grow a brain.

Hahahaha....... What a fucking loser is that DS Special Agent...... (which name sounds like a deputy from The Dukes Of Hazard) :-)
Follow the rules of the country, or go fuck yourself in america yankee......

The Russians saved Europe from the nazi's, not the fucking United States, stupid morons.

To Jeff in Oregon USA,

Nice to have someone who can clearly make his point but there are (offcourse) a few things that are a bit simplified. The 'what if' thing about the russians isn't an argument; 'What if' hitler didn't began the war on the eastern front... it's all speculation. And: the Diplomatic Security guy is prejudiced, as the press is too. The truth lies in between them. Furthermore the american government is using the suspected 'terrorist threat' as a legitimation to invade countries who are not bending their knees for the USA. E.G. the war in Iraq was just because of sphere of influence and oil. The anti-american attitude in europe is (also) due to the fact that the USA does whatever she wants without considering other countries standpoints.

But hell.. europe can't do without the USA, face it...it IS the strongest military power in the world. European countries (except maybe england)are to affraid to have casualties in time of war. Maybe the americans need to get more respect for the europeans and vice versa.

To the DS SA's from another DS SA,
This board is an excellent illustration for us, as well as all Americans; people are rarely upset for the reasons they think they are.

Notice that very little anger on this blog is related to the actions of the agent in (properly) performing his protective duties. Silly incidents such as these provide a very opportune target for political resentment - a scapegoat, if you will. When you read the news and hear anger at a US action, try to remember that it rarely involves a rational evaluation of the immediate circumstances, but is more likely an excuse to vent more deep-rooted insecurities about American power.

Our job as agents, it seems to me, is to stay above this kind of irrational fray.

Thanks for your service, DS Special Agents #1 and #2.

@Jamal di Europeano: "The Russians saved Europe from the nazi's, not the fucking United States, stupid morons."

Go tell that to my wife, you f*cking moron. She's Polish, and under the commies some days she could only get mustard and gherkins in the shops. Not to speak of how the Ruskis let Warsaw perish in '44.

First off, the role of the Russians in the defeat of Nazism should never be forgotten or downplayed. The Russians suffered an invasion more brutal and bloodthirsty than, probably, anything the world has seen since the Mongol conquests, and they not only survived but fought back, despite a human cost that would probably have driven most nations to collapse, until they had reached Berlin and the Nazi menace was well and truly crushed. For this the Russians deserve the admiration and gratitude of the world, including the US and Britain, who would have found the defeat of Nazism vastly more difficult (perhaps impossible) without Russia as an ally. It is disgraceful that many Americans fail to recognize this.

That being said (and I'm mainly responding to Aristo here), I think my comments on how relatively benign an American-dominated world is compared with one dominated by the Soviet Union (or by most other plausible alternatives) are far more than mere "speculation". After 1945 the US and the USSR dominated western and eastern Europe respectively, and each built up track records by which they may reasonably be judged. If you can't look at the historical record of the two parts of postwar Europe and see that it shows fundamental differences between American and Soviet behavior toward nations they have the opportunity to dominate, then nothing I say here will persuade you. However, I would be interested in hearing the views of readers who actually experienced life in the Soviet-ruled part of Europe, as Mr. Cosyns's wife apparently did. Note also that it was the Soviet zone which needed a physical barrier to prevent people from escaping to western Europe, not vice-versa.

On the issue of American unilateralism, I think any nation which perceives a serious threat to its security will take action to neutralize that threat. It may attempt to gain approval from other nations -- Bush did make diligent, if somewhat clumsy, efforts to gain European support for the invasion of Iraq -- but when all is said and done, if the perceived threat is serious enough, the nation that feels threatened will take action whether others approve or not. The US takes unilateral military action more often than most other nations, not necessarily because it has a greater inclination to do so, but because it has a greater ability to do so. Like all nations, we will use our military power to defend our territory and people when we feel threatened. If it is easier for us to do this without the help or approval of others, simply because our military power is much greater, then that is nothing to apologize for.

If the Belgian government believed it knew of a serious threat to Belgium, such as nuclear weapons in the hands of fanatics who intended to use them to destroy Brussels, and if Belgium had the power to destroy this threat by unilateral action without outside help, then I believe it would do so, and would have every right to do so, even if it could not persuade other nations to approve. Does anyone want to argue with that?

The fact that no nuclear-weapons program was found in Iraq does not change this. Not only the US government, but all the major governments of Europe, believed that Iraq was trying to develop weapons of mass destruction. The difference of opinion was over how to respond to the threat. If Bush was misled, so was everyone else. He had to make a decision based on the information available to him at the time.

The other motive for the invasion remains valid. Bush believes that terrorism is a product of the tyrannical nature of most governments in the Islamic world (and thus that the earlier American policy of supporting tyrannical but pro-US regimes was mistaken). Therefore, he believes that if the US can spread democracy in the Islamic world, the terrorism problem will eventually fade away. Thus he set out to create a democratic government in Iraq which could serve as a model for other Muslim states. Having some academic background in the field of Islamic culture, I see some serious flaws in Bush's reasoning, but it is nevertheless possible that this plan will achieve some success. Certainly the turnout in the recent Iraqi election shows that the Iraqi people are trying to make the most of the opportunity which the American invasion has given them. If we eventually leave Iraq with a reasonably democratic government and a freer society than it had before, while also intimidating other pro-terrorist governments with the knowledge that they will share the fate of Saddam and the Taliban if they support future attacks on the US, then in my opinion this outcome will more than justify the invasion.

Of course the America-haters will continue to insist that we never do anything for motives other than evil ones. People who blindly demonize a whole country cannot be persuaded, regardless of the evidence. But the evidence remains, regardless of their ravings and insults.

Look at Outlaw's language (2 messages above). Can you take such a specimen serious?

@ Jeff
"That being said (and I'm mainly responding to Aristo here), I think my comments on how relatively benign an American-dominated world is compared with one dominated by the Soviet Union (or by most other plausible alternatives) are far more than mere "speculation"."
While true, the US' domination isnt all that benign, the US is responsible for screwing up a whole bunch of countrys . Yes for western europe the USA influence wasnt all that bad seeing it would otherwise have been incoporated in the USSR. But for lots of africa , asian or south/middle american nations the US played a big role in the economic, sociale and political problems. Resulting in the the deaths of countless of people.
"On the issue of American unilateralism, I think any nation which perceives a serious threat to its security will take action to neutralize that threat."
No it cannot . This is what called a "pre-emptive strike" and this is still not according to internation law. Part of the power the US should come with a responsibilty it sometimes lacks. Strong doesnt mean you can bully or threaten everyone into accepting your rules, and if they dont follow you, destroying them. Strong means you have a reposnibilty to try and guide people and as long as they dont fysicly attack you ignore then in the worst case.

The US only can defend itself AFTER its attacked, just like any policeman in the US want start killing everyone who thinks can become a threat.

"If the Belgian government believed it knew of a serious threat to Belgium, such as nuclear weapons in the hands of fanatics who intended to use them to destroy Brussels, and if Belgium had the power to destroy this threat by unilateral action without outside help, then I believe it would do so, and would have every right to do so, even if it could not persuade other nations to approve. Does anyone want to argue with that? "
Unfortuntly both you and I know this wasnt the case in the US. Yu can say the US believed this but most european (and a lot of others) nations didnt. That is why most european nations wanted more time to make sure iraq had those weapons.
"The other motive for the invasion remains valid. Bush believes that terrorism is a product of the tyrannical nature of most governments in the Islamic world (and thus that the earlier American policy of supporting tyrannical but pro-US regimes was mistaken). "

But you ignore several facts, first the US till supports "tyrannical but pro-US regimes", pakistan and saudi arabie are fine examples. Second terrorisme doest come alone from tyrannical islamic countrys. ETA, IRA, mcveigh all are examples of non islamic terrorists.
" Certainly the turnout in the recent Iraqi election shows that the Iraqi people are trying to make the most of the opportunity which the American invasion has given them."

Vietnam also had elections, a couple of years later the US fled away from it leaving it to the vietcong. Elections how succesfull dont mean a whole lot in a country at war.
"Of course the America-haters will continue to insist that we never do anything for motives other than evil ones. People who blindly demonize a whole country cannot be persuaded, regardless of the evidence. But the evidence remains, regardless of their ravings and insults."

The evidence points in both ways thats the problem. There are benign reasons why the US could invade iraq, but there are also a lot of "evil" reasons.

Some examples:

WMD? => korea, pakistan and iran are a lot more dangerous in that area then iraq who had nothing.

Terrorism? => SAudi arabia, iran , pakistan support more terrorism then iraq/saddam . Saddam still was a secular leader who had little or nothing to do with international terrorism.

helping people?=> The cost of the war, and its effect of saving thousands of lives is nullified by its cost of thousands of life and the simple fact that the 100's of billions spend could have saved millions of lives fighting disease and hunger.

...

Jeff/Oregon: "First off, the role of the Russians in the defeat of Nazism should never be forgotten or downplayed..."

I didn't want to imply that Jeff, only I think the honour for throwing the Germans out of Russia and Eastern Europe should go to the ordinary Russian soldier and not to the Communist leadership, which throughout the war showed a callous disregard for the human losses among their own troops. The USSR lost some 13 million KIA and an awful lot of them died because they were considered as "disposable heroes". The life of a Russian soldier meant NOTHING to Stalins generals, and the most outrageous example of this is the fact that when Zhukovs 1st Byelorussian Front and Konievs 1st Ukrainian Front closed in on Berlin in April '45, both Marshals had artillery barrages fired "by mistake" upon each others divisions to be the first to capture the city. Can you imagine Hodges and Simpson ordering their artillery commanders to shell each others troops so that one of them would be the first to take, say, Aachen?

Apart from that, the Ruskis freed only their own country and Eastern Europe from the Nazis. I don't recall Russian troops landing on Omaha Beach or fighting in the Huertgen Forest, as "Jamal di Europeano" seems to think.

Jeff/Oregon: "That being said (and I'm mainly responding to Aristo here), I think my comments on how relatively benign an American-dominated world is compared with one dominated by the Soviet Union (or by most other plausible alternatives) are far more than mere "speculation".""

Agree completely, and it's not that I want to lick American heels. I do have some reservations about the exertion of US power, e.g. while I agree with the logic and reasoning behind the American involvement in Vietnam (to prevent the domino effect), I fear that, given the tremendous discrepancy between military and civilian losses (1/20?) quite a few bombs got tossed around rather carelessly. I guess that happens when you let politicans do the planning. In WWII General Spaatz was allowed to plan a strategic bombing campaign and busted, a.o., the German oil industry. The result was that panzers were abandoned for lack of fuel and Luftwaffe fighters on airfields were drawn by oxen to conserve the fuel otherwise used for taxying. I've read somewhere that in Vietnam Gen. Moore was only allowed to make recommendations while the planning of the air offensives was done by politicans in Washington.

As for the "benign" rule exerted by communist countries: one also has to take into account the QUALITY of life under Communism. My wife, who is Polish, spent most of her youth under Communist rule: life was dull, grey, hopeless and desperate. Nothing to look forward to, no excitement, piss-poor distraction. We know about the 100 million dead because of extreme leftist ideologies (Nazism and Communism), but who will tell the story of the appr. 2.5 billion (?) who spent/spend their life under leftist dictatorships? How do you measure the guilt of condemning two point five billion plus lives to a sad existence, shattered hopes, unfulfilled dreams, seeing your life go by without ever knowing true happiness? In a lifestyle magazine I recently stumbled upon the story of a Russian immigrant, psychologist by formation, who decided to study the phenomenon of happiness because what struck her upon arriving in the States was the sheer amount of people SMILING, which for her was a very odd thing to see.

Outlaw, go to Russia. Moscow, Novosibirsk, Vorkuta, Sochi, ... wherever. And talk to the people. Ask them if they are happier now under the capitalist regime. Everybody, except those in their blackwindowed Mercedes 600 limos, will say they want to go back to the soviet time. When they had work, could buy food, could get a good education for their kids, and heat their houses.

Outlaw -- Good points, and I note that I did give the credit on World War II to the Russian nation, not to the Soviet regime. My only cavil would be that, while it's true that the Russians did not fight in western Europe (they had to liberate their own territory, which the US didn't), their conquest of eastern Germany and capture of Berlin would have ended the war regardless of what happened or didn't happen further west. When fighting a snake, if you can smash the head, you don't need to worry about the tail.

Is your wife still in touch with people in Poland, or has she been back there recently? I'd be interested to know what Polish people in general think about the changes since the end of Communism. Same with Russians or other eastern Europeans, if there are any reading this.

K9 -- if you think it's reasonable to expect a country under threat of attack to sit passively and let the attack happen before taking any action, you are simply not living in the real world (in which, by the way, there is no such thing as "international law"). It's in everybody's interest that terrorists never be allowed to get hold of a nuclear bomb and use it to wipe out Manhattan. Believe me, you would NOT want to see what the United States would do if that happened.

All interesting points about the Russians being the ones to save Europe from the Nazis. Of course, this totally ignores the fact that the U.S. both provided the materiel with which the Russians were able to arm themselves (look it up - the US literally provided boots, uniforms, and rifles in numbers that come close to equalling total Russian deployment figures), and reduced German indusrty to nothing. Does anyone really think Russia's antiquated industrial plant could have competed with a fully-functioning German industrial base?
The "Russia saved Europe" argument also ignores the reality that the Russians initilly agreed to share Europe with the Nazis. When WWII ended, they then amassed their forces in half of Europe (which they did not exactly save - ask any Eastern European) and awaited an opportunity to invade. the only reason they dod not is that such an invasion would have mean war with the U.S. - an unwinnable nuclear war.
Last, for anyone attempting a rational discussion with Socialist party members, remember that these people hated us throughout the Cold War and hate us still. There is not set of circumstances under which they will beleive the U.S. is capable of doing, or has done, good. The only possible exception to this would be when we liberated them from the Nazis, a mistake we will never repeat. After all, has not every Belgian now pissed on our flag?

@Neil -- good reality check there -- and I was not aware that the US provided the Russians with supplies on that scale. It was still Russian troops who did the actual fighting on the eastern front, though.

The point about destroying Germany's industry reflects back to the earlier argument about Dresden. Dresden and other German cities were the sites of the factories which made the bombers that were hammering Britain and the tanks which had subjugated the Slavic countries and turned them into a genocidal hell-hole. Those cities were legitimate targets.

I'd only take issue with your last two sentences. I would be very surprised if Mr. Cosyns has ever pissed on an American flag, for example, and he's not the only one. A lot of Europeans are bigots and haters but by no means all of them.

Getting back to the original topic, does anybody know whether Mr. Vercauteren Drubbel has been disciplined at all by his government for his weird behavior during this incident?

Jeff & Neil, you should star in a new sitcom: "All in the Square Family". The return of Archie Bunker, bringing his pal.

And when will so many stupid Americans finally understand that pissing on Bush is not the same as pissing on the "stars & stripes"? Many Europeans really like the USA, but they just don't like Bush and his friends. Simple as that.

@Jeff: The US Ambassador to Belgium has personally and privately offered his apologies to Mr Vercauteren Drubbel for the incident. I had heard this indirectly from a source in the Belgian administration and I had mentioned it (in the conditional sense) in a followup posting on my Dutch blog, but not on this English compartment. Since then I have received another confirmation from another source, so I can now say that apologies were indeed offered to Mr Vercauteren Drubbel.

You and I may be surprized by this apology by the US Ambassador, but keep in mind that diplomacy is not an exact science nor some kind of judicial court system where right and wrong are checked. Diplomats have to be dipolmatic, Diplomatic Security has to protect.

There is no news at all of any disciplinary action by the Belgian government against Mr Vercauteren Drubbel.

Neil: "After all, has not every Belgian now pissed on our flag?"

I CERTAINLY NOT!!! Neil, you got to understand this: the media here are Neocommunist!!! They will only show you what they want you to know! Brussels is a city with 1,000,000 inhabitants and the protesters ran in the hundreds on the first day, maybe 3,000 to 4,000 today. Take these examples: state-run Flemish TV saw fit to report yesterday on a sad group of some 20 anarchist youngsters SOME SIXTY KLOMS FROM BRUSSELS doing relatively extensive interviews with them. Such are the items that get coverage! The main daily, De "Standaard", sported yesterday, on pages two and three, fat negative headers referring only to the anti-US viewpoints of the Socialist Party. The main weekly magazine, "Knack", for its political analyses will ALWAYS invite a certain rabidly anti-American prof from the University of Ghent, Rik Coolsaet. This is also the same fossil who is always invited to the studios of Flemish TV for another round of Bush-bashing. Do you know that on the eve of OIF another Professor, Marc Cogen, in a debate on TV with Coolsaet, DEFENDED Operation Iraqi Freedom? When the TV moderator heard that, he was so aghast that he asked again if Mr. Cogen really thought the US had the right to invade Saddam's Iraq. Mr. Cogen answered again in the affirmative and Mr. Cogen was never invited again. Coolsaet is, time and again.

It would lead me too far, but on "Knack" again: I remember clearly a column they once gave to a certain Sheikh al-Ghaffur, who was a Sunni ex-Baathist. This guy was quoted as saying that "the US Invasion was worse than Saddam". Of course this quote is PRINTED IN BOLD and presented as the absolute truth, with nothing to balance it out. Now what do you think when masses of not very critical Flemish readers get this drivel spoonfed week after week after week after week?

You have to understand it's the media! And not only MSM! There are e.g. regional newspapers everywhere. Past summer one of them in my region had an article commemmorating a sad event which took place in the village of Waarbeke in May 44. On returning back from escorting bombers over Germany, US fighters (Mustangs, Thunderbolts) dropped their fuel canisters, often still with some kerosene in it, in Belgian meadows. That day in Waarbeke, tens of locals had gathered around a "baby" to watch the event and collect the fuel. Someone lit a cigarette closeby: KABOOM!!! There were four dead and almost twenty heavily burned. Now anno 2004 there is this regional newspaper recalling what had happened. Do you know what the bold header to the story was? "FOUR DEAD THANKS TO AMERICAN "PRESENT""!!!

And the author of the article did not fail to mention that the Germans, who he apparently did not recognize as "occupiers" of Belgium, sent a truck to bring the wounded to the closest hospital and even stopped at a cafe to get them some beer!!! I SWEAR IT, this is how it was presented!

Neil, think about this for a moment: if people in the US would only get the L.A. Times and the NYT to read, and nothing but CNN to look at, do you think Bush would have been re-elected?

Luc, thanks for the information. As you say, this is surprising, but comprehensible in the context of the twisted logic which diplomacy sometimes requires.

(Congratulations on the quality of your English, by the way. I've studied other languages and I know it takes hard work to reach the level of being able to express yourself so fluently.)

I think the two postings above tell the tale. The American diplomat, representing our "stupid" nation, apologized to a Belgian official about a situation in which the Belgian official was clearly in the wrong. The Belgian government apparently has no interest in disciplining one of its representatives who physically assaulted an American security agent who was appropriately performing his duties in enforcing security rules agreed on by officials of both countries. Is it the American side which is displaying stupidity, arrogance, etc.?

To DS Special Agent, if you're still reading this: I can assure you that nobody here (except the most hard-core leftist wingnuts) thinks you did anything to apologize for.

To Joe: I can't speak for Neil (he can speak for himself), but as for me, I must have missed the episode of "All in the Family" where Archie Bunker praised the Russian army and voted against a Republican president because he didn't like his conservative domestic agenda. Not everyone who believes in a strong defense and sticks up for his country is a conservative. The world isn't that simple.

And feel free to piss on anything you want, but don't delude yourself that expressing your political views that way makes anyone other than yourself look stupid.

Haha, the Belgians rant at the Americans to act like good guests. Perhaps we'll comply when you act like gracious hosts.

It seems that the American agent was concerned by the press not acting in accordance with a prior agreement. That seems reasonable. Did he "order" them to move back? Perhaps, but even if it was wrong of him to "order" anyone around, he didn't do anything, did he? On the other hand, what business did the Belgian official have physically assaulting him? Funny comments by some Euros here about Americans shooting first and asking questions later. Ironically, the American did nothing and the Belgian resorted to physical violence.

As a security officer, the American had every right to be concerned. It has nothing to do with not respecting Belgian security; it has everything to do with taking personal and professional responsibility.

"Haha, the Belgians rant at the Americans to act like good guests. Perhaps we'll comply when you act like gracious hosts."

They Native Americans did. Look where that got 'em.
"Funny comments by some Euros here about Americans shooting first and asking questions later. Ironically, the American did nothing and the Belgian resorted to physical violence. "
Well, I really wish the US would have used this kind of "physical violence" on the natives too. And in Vietnam, And in Abu Graib.

@Neil

"The only possible exception to this would be when we liberated them from the Nazis, a mistake we will never repeat. After all, has not every Belgian now pissed on our flag?"

The only reason the US attacked the nazis was that they knew that the nazis planned to attack the US too.

It _is_ a good thing for us the US came and helped. BUT this does not validate every other action taken by the US.

@Jeff:

"if you think it's reasonable to expect a country under threat of attack to sit passively and let the attack happen before taking any action, you are simply not living in the real world
"

Strange reasoning dude...

So, ... it's okay for North Korea to bomb the US?

I'm curious to see when Europe will be next...

As the EU is planning to raise a EU-army, I guess that could be considered as a threat too.

And the recent talks about a possible decision to lift the arm-trade-embargo with China caused the US-gov to talk about "reprisals".

I guess we're next.

@TS

"My how offensive we Americans are...trying to protect our diplomats! The nerve of us!"

It's about an American telling a European where he can or cannot walk within Europe.

And this while you're actually here to beg for money to pay your war in Iraq.

good work you did your job that's wat your paid for to secure the plain outsite .
By the way i am the Belgium Citizen from Gent that made the complaint from the stickers campagne today i was in Het Laatste Nieuws editon Oost Vlaanderen page 15.
Captainkurtje@hotmail.com feel free to contact me.

@ Jeff in Oregon USA

Yes I think its reasonable to wait before you are attacked, certainly if the threat is so smal as it was in iraq.

Iraq did not have WMD, nor did it have the means to deliver them.Add to that the constant watch of not only the US/UK but also the UN and several other agencies.

Iraq was NO threat to the US, that is almost clear to everyone, could it have become a threath in the future? Perhaps but on such basis you cant start a war.
btw: there is international law . The geneva convention is a fine example of that.

What do you think the US would do if tomorrow al qaida detonated a nuke in new york? Level sereral arab cities? I doubt it, attack iran?

This is the problem with terrorism, iets not as with the cold war a clearly defined enemy, you can fight it but not with pure military means, iraq or afghanistan proves this, you need more then just that.

@ neil

No the US/UK did not provide the mayority of all weapons to russia, they did however help a lot. Mainly in transportation wich enabled the russians a swift campaign.

Most of the military hardware used was russian build you are forgetting how huge russia is and how little of it germany controlled.

Nice site. However, in looking at some of the comments here (such as the hopes of self-proclaimed Belgians for my President's assasination), I can't help but wonder why NATO HQ is located in a strategically insignificant nation so clearly opposed to our defense policy.

Iraq: Invaded Kuwait, was defeated by a UN sponsored military operation and signed a ceasefire.

Used WMD against its own people and also against Iran, which it also invaded.

UN spent much of the early 1990's destroying WMD in Iraq. Vast amounts were not found nor accounted for.

Iraq violated ceasefire many times, always grounds for the resuming of hostilities.

Iraq supported terror groups and terrorists, with basing, financially, and with advice and assistance.

Iraq continued WMD research, concealed equipment vital to an atomic weapons program, and experimented with biological agents on human subjects.

After the Liberation of Iraq, no evidence has been found to account for the missing WMD stocks. Much evidence has been found about violations of the ceasefire including illegal missle development, continued research into biological agents, and widespread belief in the highest levels of the Iraqi military that WMD stockpiles existed.

Iraq now has a freely elected government, 1/3 of which are women. The criminals that ran the country and looted it for thirty years are dead or in jail. Iraq poses no threat to its neighbors and it no longer supports international terrorism.

BTW, how many Belgians were ever tried for their parts in the atrocities in the Congo?

@k9:

America has already been attacked, many times! the assassination of American diplomats in the seventies, the occupation of the embassy in tehran, the suicide bombings and hostages in beirut, the hijackings of airplanes, the Achille Lauro, the bombing of the disco in Berlin, Lockerbie, the bombing of the WTC, the bombing of the Khobar Towers, the bombing of the US embassies in Tanzania and Kenya, the suicide mission against the USS Cole, and finally 9/11.

A strong response from the US was therefore long overdue and therefore definitely legitimate according to "international law". Who's still talking about "pre-emptive" wars now?

The enemy may be invisible, hiding, harboured in some cases by rogue regimes, but he is definitely clearly defined.

You have to fight him: political and economic means are necessary and they are being deployed, that may go unnoticed with all the media noise about iraq, but also military means are necessary. The cold war was also fought with those means albeit sometimes through proxies or covertly.

But you simply have to go after the terrorists, as the US did in Afghanistan, you have to attack rogue regimes like the one in iraq, saddam may not be linked to 9/11, but did harbour terrorists, the opportunity to invade iraq was there (the WMD issue, the obstruction to the weapons inspectors, the violation of UN resolutions in itself offered plenty justification), with hindsight (!), Iraq did not possess WMD, but containment, using the oil-for-food program and the no-fly-zones, was no tenable policy in the long term, ultimately, saddam would come out stronger, so it was right to deal with him. If only the nazis (rheinland militarisation) and imperialist japan (china) were also handled in time, a lot of suffering would have been avoided.

@Some Guy: so you mean that Nato HQ should move to London or The Hague (or maybe Moscow), because they support your defense policy? And over 4 years, when Hillary or Martin Sheen will be elected they will move back to Brussels?
Nato HQ cannot systematically move to a nation that licks your president's ass.

I'm an American who's been living in Europe for a few years now. Despite being an ignorant, trailer-dwelling, environment-destroying, racist rube from middle AmeriKKKa, I speak a few of your languages, and am able to read your press. (Not Flemish, however.)

Unfortunately, it seems the opinions expressed by a few of your posters are becoming more and more common. I'm coming to believe that anti-Americanism is an officially sanctioned form of bigotry here, and the unreasoning hatred expressed against President Bush is its purest form. Anti-European sentiment in the US is NOTHING compared with this.

Luc, sites like yours are a breath of fresh air. I'm glad I was able to hear some more reasonable voices here. Thanks for this site, and thanks for your support.

P.S. Belgian beer is the best.

PJ, bigotry is exactly what it is. In fact, this crazed anti-American hatred has some interesting features in common with traditional European anti-Semitism. I suspect they are both the products of some underlying psychotic mental condition.

The best thing about sites like this is that it allows people to see that many Europeans do not share that hatred. When Americans hear only the voices of the bigots, the situation can only deteriorate. I do not want to see a generalized hatred of Europeans take root in the US, but some of these bigots seem to be trying hard to provoke that result.

I believe from my own experience that the US is generally a more tolerant society than Europe. I've traveled around Texas, and nobody there was ever unpleasant to me even though they knew I was from a "blue" state and am certainly not a conservative. Visiting Germany about 20 years ago, I had abuse and insults hurled at me on a few occasions just because I was American (interestingly, it was only the younger people who did this), and it seems to be an increasingly common experience of Americans over there.

Not only has the US been attacked many times by Islamic terrorists as de andere kijk points out, but Osama bin Laden's own pre-September-11 writings dwell on our lack of forceful response to such outrages. He saw this as evidence that we are weak and would never fight. The result of this thinking was what we saw on September 11. Since then, at least, the examples of Afghanistan and Iraq have shown that regimes who facilitate attacks on us or even plausibly behave as if they intend to do so will suffer for it. Notice that since we adopted this aggressive policy, our territory has not been attacked again. It is achieving that security, not trying to please every sticker-pissing imbecile on the planet or hand-wringing about phantasmal "international law", that is the proper concern of the American government.

May I, as a Belgian, inform you, that your plane, with MSS Rice in it, arrived on the Airfield of Melsbroek, and NOT on Brussels International Airport (where Airforce 1 arrived) Melsbroek Airfield is a military airbase, so security there has to be done by the Belgian Air Force (BAF). If the Americans want to secure theyr own plane, they should have landed on the American Airbase of Kleinebrogel, which should have been American Soil...

@ Aspro:
I have seen Kleine Brogel (as boys my brothers and I used to ride to the base on our little bikes and lie down behind the runways to see the fighter planes come down over our heads) and as far as I remember the local soil is just your ordinary sandy Belgian stuff. Nothing American about it.

As a "flemish-belgian" I am ashamed for this unprofessional Walloon security-guy!

I would rather see Flanders as an independent nation. We have nothing in common with those Walloon people. They are French, we are not. Belgium simply does not exist: there is no Belgian language, no Belgian culture, no Belgian media, etc.

Flanders has more inhabitants than Denmark, Finland, Ireland,... so why aren't we allowed to have our own nation? Let those anti-American Walloon people go to France. Au revoir!

@Dennis
I live in Brussels and I think that's pity what you said : As a "flemish-belgian" I am ashamed for this unprofessional Walloon security-guy!

We don't care about where we come from, it's just a fucking supercop, like all the people in the "high administration's level".

Problem between flamish and french, it's just because you express what the politicians want to, personnaly I don't care about it, when I go in Vlaanderen I speak in flamish, and there is no problem. We have to try to live together, there is biggest problem for Europe, per exemple the invasion of MUSLIM!!!. 30% of new babies in Brussels get muslim names!!! About that I am very afraid!!!
then to continue stories with flamish belgian an wallon belgian, it's a big waste of time.

@Effaralgan,

I grew up in Washington DC, and have run past the Belgian embassy on many occasions. It is clearly on swampy American soil. Nothing Belgian about it. Maybe I'll try and drop in for a visit next time I'm there. I'm sure they'll let me walk right in. After all, it is my country.

@PJ:
It wouldn't surprise me to see you walk right into the Belgian embassy in Washington. After all you Yanks own the whole world, don't you, and you go everywhere with a swagger and call the shots, or try to, whether you're invited or not.

@ Tom

You completely missed the sarcasm. Congratulations. I thought we Americans were supposed to be the thick ones.

PJ: ahem- you forgot knuckle-dragging, belly-scratching and gun-toting, you ignorant rube.

Oh, yeah. Beer-drinking.

This is so much more fun than watching the Oscars.

Ok right, first of all for all these pathetic people with their remarcs. The Belgian sec guy says "This is not you're plain" 'cause he means they are controlling the airport and they are in charge of the securing the area. And it's a way of saying, it's my job to lead it all safely. I can understand his reaction against the posture the us security agent takes. He thinks that wherever he comes he's in charge of security. And tell me why would a belgian press guy do an effort to kill Rice there. The just want a stupid pic for there job. BTW this quit a lot of bullshit some people are giving with the seal of the usa on the plain and whatever.
I'm sorry but some people have to look furthur than the exact words and take a look at what happend and the reason of the reactions. I can understand the american sec guy didn't understand what the guy was meaning but still if you've seen the pics and clips you see it ain't a diplomatic way of reaction the american guy has.
Another thing belgiummaight look small but don't underestimate us. Remember that. (just for the record the one who secured mastercards and designed the visa system are from belgium so, we're not just fries-eaters)

Another thing i 4got to mention. Just look how the american guy smiles. He enjoyes creating the trouble. He likes it. Thats low man i tell you

I know the man from the US Secret Service. His name is BXXXXXX MXXXXXXX, he lives near my house in Belgium 1930 Sterrebeek, XXXXXXXXXstraat XX.
He uses a diplomatic car XXXXXXXX registration in Belgium CD X XXX.
He is married and has a little child.
Everybody in Sterrebeek hopes he will leave Belgium as soon as possible, because he is violent when he drinks beer.

A fan off LVB

[message modified by LVB for legal reasons, privacy etc. - 2005-04-19 @04:30]

@Willems: sorry, but I had to censor your message in respect of the privacy of the person involved. By the way, the Secret Service had nothing to do with this incident, it was Diplomatic Security.

It's generally known Belgians have a much higher education.
I'am American, and i'am deeply shamed. This shows again the arrogance of the Americans. Hooray for the Belgians.

An embarassed american citizen.

I'd be interested in knowing what authority our agents have when protecting our leaders on foriegn soil?

OMFG , why even bother to discuss this matter ? Belgians are not in any way dumb or impolite ( I mean , how would you react if a Belgian security squad ,or whatever, gave all the commands in a US airport )I say the belgian guy's reaction is perfectly normal . In fact the incident is just so silly , it's not even worth discussing !

Belgium :
Flemish ( 6000 000 )
French ( 4000 000 )
German ( 100 000 )

> They're not french you know ...

Belgian protocol chief is right, you paranoïd imperialists!
I don't think any american agent would accept orders from a foreign agent, so why would we??

All theyre trying to do is keep the reporters and such from Condi and the plane. Thats all. thats theyre job. Thats what the Belgian government would have had to have agreed to before they even planned the trip. Stupid Belgian guy says its not even his plane!

I definitely think its reasonable to wait before you are attacked.

great post.
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